I received the mailing about the proposals a few days ago.



It struck me as written by someone who views mass transit as something for poor people to use to revitalize their distressed neighborhoods.



Anyway...can anyone explain the rationale for the two downtown loop options? The east-west one seemed to make the most sense but the north street was only a block or two from the south running side?



The north-south loop seemed redundant to the existing MetroLink.



St. Louis has a small downtown area that may be easily walked. It would make sense to make the spread between the two sides of the loops farther apart.

Can you somehow post the proposal?

If they are still the same as the ones discussed in June:

Here the blue line represents the current MetroLink system in tunnels under downtown and the red line is a proposed street-level route.





Here the blue line represents the current MetroLink system in tunnels under downtown and the magenta line is a proposed street-level route.

Wouldn't North City and South City commuters want to access the same Downtown destinations as current MetroLink patrons? If you say they could transfer at Civic Center to reach Downtown employment or special events, then why not just stay on 14th with the north-south line and force everyone to transfer?



And if some commuters wish to go through downtown, or between North and South City, like many popular cross-town bus routes, how much time do you take for making a big loop downtown, when all some want to do is go across town?



Finally, isn't all of Downtown fairly walkable to MetroLink, except the Loft District, which both downtown options appear to serve?



At first glance, the 9th/10th routing does look like a duplication of the existing line. But I think it manages to achieve three important things: 1) it provides a single-ride trip to downtown employment and special events from new north and south markets, 2) it traverses downtown quickly enough if downtown's not your final destination, whether continuing cross-town or transferring to the existing line, and 3) despite a lot of duplication for much of downtown, it still adds new access to the least-served, growing corner of downtown-- the Loft District, the line running around 14th and Delmar, immediately east of the City Museum and north of Washington Avenue.

How will people transfer from the South/North Line to the Lambert line? Are they going to get off the train and walk a block to transfer? I hope not.

any ideas where the new stations would be...and i sure would hope that the loop would cover the entire DT not just a sliver in the middle... Would these be at grade and run in the street or new subway?

^ The loops are a "slivers" to keep transit times down and to keep from duplicating the service of the original line. As southslider said, the loft district is reall the only part of DT that isn't entirley walkable to everything.

Would these loops incorporate existing underground tunnels/rail lines?



The second option seems to make more sense.

^ I agree that the second option provides better all around coverage for the CBD. If one of these were to be built my vote would be for the magenta option as it really makes almost everything a maximum 5 block walk.

How will people transfer from the South/North Line to the Lambert line? Are they going to get off the train and walk a block to transfer? I hope not.

It does seem that at least one stop should align with current Metro. Otherwise, two separate, overlapping, but not connecting systems are built . . .



Wouldn't it be cheaper to have a streetcar system that covers the CBD and possibly AG Edwards, Grand Center? Commute on Metro and then connect with the streetcars . . .

Looking at the maps, the most logical transfer point would be at the Civic Center Station since that is where the two lines come the closest.

And what if you're on the north line?

^That's why I like 9th/10th. If you're coming from the north, be it Loft District or Old North St. Louis, it looks like your train ride is faster to Civic Center for a transfer to head to the CWE, Loop, Clayton or elsewhere.



Though the maps don't show stations, I imagine both 9th/10th and Olive/Chestnut would have a station within 1-2 blocks from 8th & Pine, as well as a station very close to the existing Civic Center station. While 8th & Pine may only be a 1-2 block walk from either downtown route, unless you're headed to Illinois from North City, you might as well stay on the train just a few minutes more for a shorter walk or easier transfer at the Civic Center.



However, not only do these maps not show station locations, but also whether the station nearest Civic Center would be on 14th or its westside, thus closer to the existing station. Either way, the walk would be less than that between the new CWE bus transfer center and its station platform, but I'd prefer off the street at least for this station, if it is to become the transfer hub between the two lines. Being billed as "station planning" workshops, there will hopefully be maps with stations at the upcoming Oct.24-26 workshops.

I generally think we need to think bigger with this loop. If the loop is going to be so small, why even have it loop? Look at it, it could pretty much just be one continuous line and make just as much sense.

I agree it should be larger and do more to reach and connect. Why should money be spent simply to save walking a couple of blocks? Just click a drag either option a little further out.

stlmike wrote:My dream loop would be, if it somehow could work:



Cole to the north -- would hit the stadium, casinos, hopefully encourage growth in this area or support the BD if it ever takes off.



Clark to the south -- would hit near the Savvis, the Courthouse, ballpark village, make it easy to transfer at the original line,



Broadway to the east -- near the Arch grounds, many HOTELS



14th to the west -- intersection of 14th and Washington, which is right in the middle of the action, the library

Exactly... that is what I was thinking... I don't like either option above...but it's hard to tell because it just shows the lines and not the stops... Who cares if you live next to a line if there is no stop nearby...

Cole-Broadway-Clark-14th would be a very long ride around Downtown before ever heading out of Downtown. This is ultimately a North-South line, not a Downtown people-mover. If you've ever ridden an express bus to/from downtown, you'd see that half of your ride can be spent just in downtown winding around.



I think 9th-10th would be fast yet still bend east enough for workers, yet enter/exit downtown near the Loft District from the North and at Civic Center from the south. Olive-Chestnut would take longer, maybe off-peak trains would stay on 14th, but it's compact enough to not take as long as the original Market-7th-Washington-14th loop concept gone from the 2000 study.

Sadly, neither one accounts for West Downtown and AG Edwards > Modern streetcar between downtown, Midtown, and CWE along Locust or Olive and eventually Lindell in Midtown to CWE.

A long time around? A loop doesn't go in one way, loop around, and go out the other way, it turns around in a circle and goes back the other way. The other train goes around the other direction. If you're going north from the south, you'd transfer at the first stop and the north side line would be going the other direction around the loop and that would take you the other way and leave the loop faster. If the north-south line was supposed to be a straight train that travels all the way north to all the way south and vice versa, I don't see the point of making it loop at all.

Because I love making ludicrous proposals...





Illinois trains terminate at Union Station, Missouri trains terminate at Convention Center, north-south trains bisect the "loop." The orange line is a pure streetcar line.

Hey! You stole my idea! This is exactly the type of loop I proposed in another tread! I'm gonna get you sucka!

Ummm there are people who work in Clayton that commute from Illinois. This makes them transfer downtown. I'm not sure what the Illinois people think, but whatever to me in Missouri as long as they have a say.



This makes me question if future Illinois lines may require another bridge to come across the Mississippi so as not to overwhelm the Eads Bridge and keep headways adequate on the current line if ever incorporated into a loop.

Transering isn't that hard if you only have to do it once. And if you're going to have to transfer, downtown is the best place to do it because it makes downtown the place where everything converges. It returns downtown to the transportation-center of the region.

OK - since we're posting crazy ideas . . .

http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/widescreen/24267



By the way, Wayfaring is a great tool to map this stuff out - it's a little inconvenient to edit routes, but whatever.



I did leave out North St. Louis - there should probably be a line going up Jefferson or somewhere downtown to MLK or Natural Bridge and then back down Kingshighway or Grand . . . feel free to add something.