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New Lighting Downtown

New Lighting Downtown

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PostAug 23, 2016#1

This is great news.

It will be cool when they can turn the entire city red for a Cardinals win, ETC. I wish they were starting in a more walkable area.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... e24cf.html

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PostAug 23, 2016#2

The mayor still hasn't fulfilled his decade-old pledge to synch traffic lights downtown. Color me doubtful that this technology will be anything but rusting electronics after five years, if it's ever installed at all.

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PostAug 24, 2016#3

Here's to hoping it never gets installed. Those lighting strips around SLU are awful. It makes driving there at night deeply uncomfortable. They're just not full spectrum luminaires. It's harsh, uncomfortable, unpleasant light.

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PostAug 24, 2016#4

I've heard from a couple residents panning the LED lights installed in the Shaw/TGS/SW Gardens area.

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PostAug 24, 2016#5

I have them outside my house in TGS - they aren't that bad.

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PostAug 24, 2016#6

pattimagee wrote:I have them outside my house in TGS - they aren't that bad.

How's the color? I know they're cooler but how much really

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PostAug 24, 2016#7

They're definitely better than that bright orange lights - now they are more natural and brighter... quieter also. Not a huge difference though. More lights would have been better.

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PostAug 24, 2016#8

LED's are worth it for the maintenance.

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PostAug 25, 2016#9

last a lot longer right?

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PostAug 25, 2016#10

I don't get the opposition to LEDs. If they're too bright, can't they just use a dimmer or something? If the color's wrong, can't they use a filter?

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PostAug 25, 2016#11

It's more complicated than that. Filters work well light sources that produce a full, continuous, and even spectrum but less predictably on sources with uneven or discontinuous spectra. (Which only stands to reason.) Folks have attempted to measure this in a number of ways; most famously with a scale called the "color rendering index." This worked pretty well until LEDs, but the measurement was approximate (since it uses a relatively small finite number of samples) and LEDs found the holes. There's some pretty good discussion of the limitations and criticisms in the Wikipedia article on the subject. Huge piles of paper have been spent on trying to compensate for the disadvantages. And different people will doubtless perceive them differently, as our color vision isn't uniform. (They might, for instance, be less troubling to someone with red green color blindness, as they are particularly poor at rendering reds.) Note that there is a difference between the perceived color of a reflected light, which might be a very narrow spectrum, and it's ability to accurately illuminate pigments in related spectra, as pigmented objects typically reflect a broad spectrum of colors, albeit unevenly. (A blue car still reflects enough red that it can look red under red light. And the car can look quite different under a blue light than a white light, since the blue light is generally not a full spectrum.)

The basic problem with LEDs is several fold: they do not produce an even, full spectrum. (The better ones come quite a lot closer. But they are also much more expensive.) They tend to produce a lot more blue light than traditional incandescent lights of the same color temperature. Take a picture of a room lit with two different strings of Christmas lights; one LEDs and the other traditional incandescent lights. You will find that even if you perceive the lights to be similar one picture will look rather yellow and the other quite blue. This isn't an illusion. Our brain to some extent adjusts for the color of the light . . . but not the color of the photograph. As a matter of fact, many cameras will automatically adjust their white balance, which would tend to mitigate this effect, but I find that they don't do so terribly well with LEDs. (To truly see the effect you should set the white balance to manual and don't change it between pictures, but the effect should be visible even if you don't.)

For reasons I'm not able to expand on it seems that blue light causes considerably more eyestrain than longer wavelengths. This means that LED streetlights cause comparably more eyestrain on a lumen for lumen basis, thus to see the same benefit you would need to make them much brighter. This too has a cost, as it means the difference between the well lit and shadowed areas will be greater, which also causes eyestrain. (And makes it more difficult to perceive things in the dark . . . like a deer jumping out of a ditch.)

Next up, blue light interferes more with sleep patterns, as our bodies perceive blue light to be morning light. You want bright "daylight" lightbulbs in the morning and "soft" or better yet "warm" lights in the evening.

Another problem is the field. LEDs don't really produce a spherical field, which means they often don't work well with light fixtures designed for a spherical light source . . . like pretty much every light fixture you've ever seen. The reflectors and lenses simply don't work properly with LEDs. You can compensate for that with different kinds of fixtures . . . but that's another expense. (In fact, it's typically the primary barrier to getting theatres to use LEDs. They can't just pop an LED into their existing light fixture. It requires a completely new fixture, which is often hundreds or even thousands of dollars to an example and tens or hundreds of thousands for a completely new inventory.) So theatres will often add a few specialized wash luminaires, but they're often still reluctant to use them more broadly. And all those fixtures on the ends of all those poles have reflectors and lenses designed for High Pressure Sodium lights that do indeed emit a more or less spherical field. So short of changing the fixtures, you get a much less even light field.

The takeaway is that I, for one, find it physically unpleasant to drive through Midtown now. It hurts my eyes and I cannot see as well there. The eye strain problem is something that becomes more pronounced as you grow older. And . . . I'm slowly but surely getting a little bit older.

So don't get me wrong. I've sold LED fixtures. Phillips/Strand makes a line of fixtures using a light engine called the Selecon. It's great. LEDs surely have their place. I don't think street lights are one of them . . . yet. Something better than horror show around SLU might be possible, but it would be more expensive.

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PostAug 25, 2016#12

I don't get the opposition to LEDs. If they're too bright, can't they just use a dimmer or something? If the color's wrong, can't they use a filter?
Yeah, I think the opposition to LED's is a bit overblown. You can use a lower color temperature to mimic a softer light like high pressure sodium.

When you get down to it, these things can last untouched for 10 years or more and some manufacturers will warrant that. Also their energy use is significantly lower. There are around 50,000 street lights in the City that the Streets Department maintains. They would save the city a ton of money and man power if LEDs were all over the city.

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PostAug 26, 2016#13

pat wrote:Yeah, I think the opposition to LED's is a bit overblown. You can use a lower color temperature to mimic a softer light like high pressure sodium.

When you get down to it, these things can last untouched for 10 years or more and some manufacturers will warrant that. Also their energy use is significantly lower. There are around 50,000 street lights in the City that the Streets Department maintains. They would save the city a ton of money and man power if LEDs were all over the city.
I'm not opposed to them myself if they do them well. I am opposed to them if they do them like they did them around Midtown, as that place is just a headache on a stick to drive through at night now. How old are your eyes, if I may ask? I really think that might have something to do with it.

That aside, I'm all in favor of greater efficiency so long as it doesn't mean more accidents or more health problems. But if you look above you will see that it's not as simple as just using a lower color temperature. The lights aren't the same. Even if you use a lower color temperature they still have different spectra, different diffraction, and the light fields are different. While you can buy a mogul base LED lamp that you can screw into a fixture at home, with high intensity fixtures you usually need an entirely new fixture. Commercial lighting fixtures just aren't the same animal as the quartet of glass shades below your ceiling fan. They incorporate carefully designed reflectors specific to very specific types of lamps. (And when I say lamp I mean what the layman would call a lightbulb.) The fixture depends on the lamp producing the light in a certain place to a certain intensity and radiating it in a certain way. Without that you don't get the desired field. Some of them are even picky enough to require careful adjustment. (Or focusing.) What you can do with a 40-100 watt lamp in your house is quite different from what you do with a 500-5000 watt lamp in a large commercial fixture. That street light, for instance, provides high voltage DC. It has a ballast. (That's what you hear humming.) When you buy a mogul base 17 watt compact fluorescent lamp it has a built in ballast. The voltage requirements and behavior of the ballast are why they don't like dimmers. To install LEDs in streetlights you'll have to replace the ballast, reflector, base, and lens. Essentially, you'll need to replace not just the lightbulb, but the whole streetlight. That's a bit more expensive. And the quality of light they pump out varies considerably with price tag. So if we can find a way to do it well for a budget the city can afford, hooray! Splendid! If not . . . please don't. What we have now works fine. And better LEDs will come in the future and at a cheaper price. It's new tech. There's a curve. Have a little patience. Let's not spend too much on something crappy right now. This is all I ask.

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PostAug 26, 2016#14

And here's the American Medical Association's recommendation again that was issued June'16
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/news/ne ... hting.page

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PostAug 26, 2022#15

"Several major cities have adopted LED streetlights to save energy and money. But in many cases, they worsen light pollution, which can harm humans and wildlife." 
https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/17/1057652/outdoor-led-lighting/