HTC-Eligible Buildings: What's Left?

Presbyterian · PostFeb 28, 2014#12014-02-28T22:47+00:00

Historic Tax Credit-Eligible Buildings Downtown: What's Left? So much progress has been made. What buildings are not yet in play somewhere in the development process? Help me out. Let me know if some of these are in serious play... and what I'm missing. Here's a start...

Central Business District:
505 Washington - 3-level mid-century gem
510 Locust - Mercantile Building (A.H./Spinnaker)
921 Locust (UrbanStreet)
923 Locust - Noonan-Kocian Art Co. (UrbanSt.)
509 Olive - LaSalle Building (Rothschild)
511 Olive (Amos Harris / Spinnaker)
611 Olive - Railway Exchange Building (Rick Yackey)

West of Tucker:
401 N. Tucker - Jefferson Arms (David Jump)
1717 Olive - Butler Brothers Building
1709 Locust - Dragon Trading Co (Soverign Partners, NYC)
1711 Locust - Locust St. Substation (Kopler)
1815 Locust - The Weber Building (TireMart)
2000 Washington - 2-level firehouse
3120 Market? - Municipal Courts plan dead?

South of Market:
200 S. 4th - Millennium Hotel
1132 Spruce - Globe Drug Warehouse

roger wyoming II · PostMar 01, 2014#22014-03-01T14:59+00:00

Great project.... this could help inventory potentially threatened buildings to allow for more proactive work towards preservation. and help make the case for protecting the HTC program.

It would also be cool to set up a website featuring these properties... "Grab "Em While You Can"

goat314 · PostMar 01, 2014#32014-03-01T15:35+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:Historic Tax Credit-Eligible Buildings Downtown: What's Left? So much progress has been made. What buildings are not yet in play somewhere in the development process? Help me out. Let me know if some of these are in serious play... and what I'm missing. Here's a start...

Central Business District:
505 Washington - 3-level mid-century gem
510 Locust - Mercantile Building
921 Locust
923 Locust - Noonan-Kocian Art Co.
509 Olive - LaSalle Building
611 Olive - Railway Exchange Building (Macy's)

West of Tucker:
401 N. Tucker - Jefferson Arms
1717 Olive - Butler Brothers Building
1711 Locust - Kopler-owned
1815 Locust - The Weber Building (TireMart)
2000 Washington - 2-level firehouse
3120 Market? - Municipal Courts plan dead?

South of Market:
200 S. 4th - Millennium Hotel
1132 Spruce - Globe Drug Warehouse

The number of really large buildings is definitely rapidly disappearing. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say by 2020 we will have few to any major warehouses left to rehab from tucker to grand. I think that is when we will see a rush for new construction/infill. It seems like we are in the midst of a post recession mini-boom with all the proposals that have been recently seen. I also think the streetcar will set off a boom that we have yet to see to date.

dmmonty1 · PostMar 01, 2014#42014-03-01T15:38+00:00

How about the Dragon Trading building and neighboring Locust Street Substation building?

Presbyterian · PostMar 01, 2014#52014-03-01T17:21+00:00

^Awesome. Just updated the list to reflect that.

I remember Slay or someone saying that we have 140 vacant buildings downtown just a few years ago. Now the opportunities are becoming limited for downtown developers seeking to bundle together federal and state historic tax credits with LIHTC and other state assistance.

Gateway City · PostMar 01, 2014#62014-03-01T18:34+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:^Awesome. Just updated the list to reflect that.

I remember Slay or someone saying that we have 140 vacant buildings downtown just a few years ago. Now the opportunities are becoming limited for downtown developers seeking to bundle together federal and state historic tax credits with LIHTC and other state assistance.

There about that many in 2000. I read a few months ago that in the present day we have a little over 30. With so many of those under renovation/proposed renovation, I think the few on this thread really are the last few left. I also remember a developer recently saying that within five years, there will be zero left. I hope that's correct.

St. Louis should be seeing new infill Downtown just like other cities. There's lots of NEW Downtown construction in cities like Denver, Minni, Seattle, Cin City , Atlanta, Shittsburgh, etc. all the time because they don't have these massive, gorgeous, 19th century buildings sitting around vacant. For every one vacant historic building that is renovated in Downtown St. Louis, that's a missed opportunity for new infill. If the Arcade weren't vacant, then somebody would be building a 20 story building over a parking lot instead.

That's how things will be as we draw closer to finishing all these leftover vacant buildings. Once that happens, we can look forward to some brand new, sleek, glass high-rises popping up all over Downtown and replacing those parking lots.

goat314 · PostMar 01, 2014#72014-03-01T20:13+00:00

Funny you call it Shittsburgh lol, it seems that Pittsburgh has arisen as the new city that gets praised and model for what St. Louis should be doing. I even heard somebody say that St. Louis could be where Pittsburgh is today 10 years from now, with hard work lol. Funny thing is my fiancee is from Pittsburgh and she always says that St. Louis is like a better Pittsburgh, but don't let any of these Pittsburgh homers hear that. Pittsburgh is apparently the America's latest comeback city, in reality its on the same tier as St. Louis.

PostMar 01, 2014#82014-03-01T21:39+00:00

This is how many units downtown could fit between Delmar, I-70, Tucker, and Pine under two different scenarios (max/min build out) if we adopt the downtown form based code.

Our CBD would look something like this if we added 6,000 residents in our immediate downtown area.

So yes, eventually the only place to go is up! Especially if we can only add 1,000 residents to this area under a minimal build out scenario. Downtown is currently growing by about 500 residents a year. So those empty lots would fill up extremely fast once all the buildings are done getting rehabbed. I predict a residential hi-rise boom around 2018-2020. Our skyline will look similar to Denver, only we will have more historic buildings and the Arch.

Gateway City · PostMar 01, 2014#92014-03-01T23:12+00:00

I see no reason for max height limits. Also, why do these pictures only show the north portion of DT? It doesn't show DT south at all, an area that really needs a push of some sort. I would honestly rather see an MLS stadium built there than by Union Station.

goat314 · PostMar 01, 2014#102014-03-01T23:21+00:00

Gateway City wrote:I see no reason for max height limits. Also, why do these pictures only show the north portion of DT? It doesn't show DT south at all, an area that really needs a push of some sort. I would honestly rather see an MLS stadium built there than by Union Station.

That's because downtown south already has a form based code with the TOD plan that came back a few months back.

I also think height limits in certain areas are alright, because it will cluster any new 400ft+ buildings into a certain area and preserve the scale of historic districts. St. Louis also the demand in St. Louis just doesn't warrant supertalls, I doubt we will see a building taller than the Arch in our lifetimes.

Gateway City · PostMar 01, 2014#112014-03-01T23:51+00:00

I probably have 60 years left here. I'll see some. Once these last vacant properties are occupied, it's only a matter of time before a 630+ foot building is built. Some ambitious developer will say "Why should I build three 25 story buildings? Everyone else is already doing that! MY building is going to TRANSFORM the St. Louis skyline!"

goat314 · PostMar 02, 2014#122014-03-02T00:23+00:00

Gateway City wrote:I probably have 60 years left here. I'll see some. Once these last vacant properties are occupied, it's only a matter of time before a 630+ foot building is built. Some ambitious developer will say "Why should I build three 25 story buildings? Everyone else is already doing that! MY building is going to TRANSFORM the St. Louis skyline!"

you got a point there, but how far off is that? Maybe 20 years? I also highly doubt somebody is going to build taller than the Arch.

Gateway City · PostMar 02, 2014#132014-03-02T00:56+00:00

Clayco and McKee said last year that they plan to build the Bottle District. McKee owns the land. They're probably waiting for these last few vacant buildings to become occupied again before moving onto the next step. I think at least one Bottle District Tower will break ground by 2020.

roger wyoming II · PostMar 02, 2014#142014-03-02T14:41+00:00

goat, thanks for sharing the form-based visualizations.

GC, you're right that Mayor Slay said last year there were 30 vacant downtown historics but I wonder also what the boundaries were for that. Anyway, it would be nice to have a list made public.

BrickCity4470 · PostMar 02, 2014#152014-03-02T16:03+00:00

I think that's awesome we only have 30 vacant buildings left downtown... St.Louis has come a very long ways thats for sure and a city that seen a catastrophic decline is coming back like a bullet train plowing through a bunch of cars ... I think Pittsburgh is awesome and their skyline is undeniably one of the best in this country however i do think St.Louis gets way over looked in favoritism Just like i feel Kansas City gets way more than what St.Louis gets.. It will be exciting to see new shinning buildings in downtown mixed with those beautiful old brickers will give the city a bigger city feel and much more character to it Old future meets new future. . I will say there be at least a 700 footer going up downtown between now and 20 years..
When i lived in Denver back in 03 and so on i believe their next big building boom was just beginning. I remember the big announcement on the new convention hotel and the train station redo. I admire everything about Denver but my love for St.Louis runs deeper...
Hopefully all this in St.Louis comes to fruition..

roger wyoming II · PostMar 02, 2014#162014-03-02T16:39+00:00

goat314 wrote:Funny you call it Shittsburgh lol, it seems that Pittsburgh has arisen as the new city that gets praised and model for what St. Louis should be doing. I even heard somebody say that St. Louis could be where Pittsburgh is today 10 years from now, with hard work lol. Funny thing is my fiancee is from Pittsburgh and she always says that St. Louis is like a better Pittsburgh, but don't let any of these Pittsburgh homers hear that. Pittsburgh is apparently the America's latest comeback city, in reality its on the same tier as St. Louis.

Truth of the matter really is that central corridors in most cities are seeing a lot of progress.... its a golden age of sorts for cities that even a very tough economic climate has only been able to slow rather than subdue. Despite some continuing challenges for sure, even old fogey "rusters" like Saint Louis, Cincy, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are all seeing some exciting things, even Detroit.

Here is a nice overview of what's going on in Cincy: http://www.urbancincy.com/2014/01/photo ... ing-years/ Pretty cool stuff; I especially like the residential tower being built on top of a parking garage & demo of a parking garage for a tower... Nice!

PostMay 01, 2014#172014-05-01T17:08+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:Historic Tax Credit-Eligible Buildings Downtown: What's Left? So much progress has been made. What buildings are not yet in play somewhere in the development process? Help me out. Let me know if some of these are in serious play... and what I'm missing. Here's a start...

Central Business District:
505 Washington - 3-level mid-century gem
510 Locust - Mercantile Building (A.H./Spinnaker)
921 Locust (UrbanStreet)
923 Locust - Noonan-Kocian Art Co. (UrbanSt.)
509 Olive - LaSalle Building (Rothschild)
511 Olive (Amos Harris / Spinnaker)
611 Olive - Railway Exchange Building (Rick Yackey)

West of Tucker:
401 N. Tucker - Jefferson Arms (David Jump)
1717 Olive - Butler Brothers Building
1709 Locust - Dragon Trading Co (Soverign Partners, NYC)
1711 Locust - Locust St. Substation (Kopler)
1815 Locust - The Weber Building (TireMart)
2000 Washington - 2-level firehouse
3120 Market? - Municipal Courts plan dead?

South of Market:
200 S. 4th - Millennium Hotel
1132 Spruce - Globe Drug Warehouse

I guess Globe Drug can be taken off the list as U-Haul has occupied it. (not sure if they plan to do any exterior work but at least its operational)

So which may be in harm's way? We know 921 and 923 Locust may be in jeopardy if the Chicago ownership group follows the Robert's Bros. hotel plan and 1711Locust has some serious condition issues; the Lasalle Building also was citied for Building Collapse last June but don't know the extent of problem. What else on the list may be facing serious pressures?

PostJun 28, 2014#182014-06-28T23:00+00:00

Which building would you give New Markets Tax Credits to? NMTC can be a key piece to get difficult projects over the finish line but they are not easy to come by. The failure to receive them for the Jefferson Arms project is what killed/sidelined the plan to renovate it for the Teach for America project.

Any preference for what might be best to have next in line for downtown's next key project and most deserving of New Markets credits? Railway Exchange probably is trying to figure out what its in store for it, so my top three candidates for key buildings that may have some more "shovel readiness" are Jefferson Arms, Mercantile Exchange and Butler Bros. I probably would go with JA but the other two have strong merit as well.

dredger · PostJun 29, 2014#192014-06-29T05:20+00:00

^ I would think the Chemical bldg which seems to need a push over the last hump or maybe talking one in the same building.

I like the idea of re purposing the Railway exchange to incorporate a data center on several of the lower floors as long it is off the street. You could literally market the idea of being on top of your cloud. I think it is an idea that might land a corporate IT center or give a financial firm incentive to relocate some of its IT out of the expensive coastal centers. Jim might think launchcode is a challenge. I would love him to tackle this idea.

How about the old Muni courts development? Use the credits to build the infill with commercial, parking structure as proposed as long as the structure can support future residential tower on top.

I think the Jefferson Arms proposal was not even close to happening. If not mistaken, wasn't the whole Teach American proposal was going to be financed by New market tax credits? I can't recall a single project in the region that was solely financed with NMTC nor can I recall an entity using the entirety of its tax credits on one project. Then you throw in the sheer size of JA compared that with what is actually happening that with Teach America in other cities.

roger wyoming II · PostJun 29, 2014#202014-06-29T21:45+00:00

^ If the issue with the Chemical is financing, awarding NMTC definitely would be great.... but reading between the lines I don't think this is the case; I could be wrong, but it looks like they can/will get financing once parking gets resolved.

Jefferson Arms: wow, if they were expecting a full ride off NMTC that would be nuts. I think the credit only brings in about 20% or so of the award in actual equity so it would take a tremendously high award which the region probably isn't even awarded. I do think though that the TforA project could work like the Arcade where you have a mix of subsidized and market rate units.

Municipal Courts/1320 Market: Certainly a worthy building and project, but my preference would be for JA, Butler Bros or Mercantile -- if any of those are ready for this round -- as I think those projects are more instrumental for downtown.

PostJun 30, 2014#212014-06-30T01:19+00:00

dredger wrote: I think the Jefferson Arms proposal was not even close to happening. If not mistaken, wasn't the whole Teach American proposal was going to be financed by New market tax credits?

I just checked and McGowan's asked for a bit north of $100 million in credits in 2012, but the key again is that only would have provided about $20-25 million in equity.... so they seemed to have a significant amount of other investment lined up but came up shy w/o the NMTC.

BTW, the amount of this spring's awards to area funds that in turn dole these credits out to specific projects appears to be pretty low compared to prior years, which is unfortunate. And some of those also went to a fund that only invests in suburban projects.

PostJun 30, 2014#222014-06-30T15:12+00:00

dredger wrote: I like the idea of re purposing the Railway exchange to incorporate a data center on several of the lower floors as long it is off the street. You could literally market the idea of being on top of your cloud. I think it is an idea that might land a corporate IT center or give a financial firm incentive to relocate some of its IT out of the expensive coastal centers. Jim might think launchcode is a challenge. I would love him to tackle this idea.

Love that idea! With its enormous space, RR could be all things to all people. Retail center, data center, tech offices, residences, hotel and more! Maybe ATT One Center, too. Just think of living in The Cloud on the 40th floor with the data center below.

PostJul 17, 2015#232015-07-17T15:39+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:Historic Tax Credit-Eligible Buildings Downtown: What's Left? So much progress has been made. What buildings are not yet in play somewhere in the development process? Help me out. Let me know if some of these are in serious play... and what I'm missing. Here's a start...

Central Business District:
505 Washington - 3-level mid-century gem
510 Locust - Mercantile Building (A.H./Spinnaker)
921 Locust (UrbanStreet)
923 Locust - Noonan-Kocian Art Co. (UrbanSt.)
509 Olive - LaSalle Building (Rothschild)
511 Olive (Amos Harris / Spinnaker)
611 Olive - Railway Exchange Building (Rick Yackey)

West of Tucker:
401 N. Tucker - Jefferson Arms (David Jump)
1717 Olive - Butler Brothers Building
1709 Locust - Dragon Trading Co (Soverign Partners, NYC)
1711 Locust - Locust St. Substation (Kopler)
1815 Locust - The Weber Building (TireMart)
2000 Washington - 2-level firehouse
3120 Market? - Municipal Courts plan dead?

South of Market:
200 S. 4th - Millennium Hotel
1132 Spruce - Globe Drug Warehouse

Globe Drug is off the list with the U-Haul project and the Dragon Trade & 2000 Washington buildings have redevelopment plans with Board Bills introduced. So some progress!

PostJul 17, 2015#242015-07-17T16:02+00:00

presby, could you add 777 Olive (Chemical), 1511 Washington (International Shoe), 1706 Washington (Old CPI HQ) & 725 N. 23rd (Old Commercial Letter)?

Presbyterian · PostJul 17, 2015#252015-07-17T18:11+00:00

Here's a working list:

Central Business District:
505 Washington - 3-level mid-century gem
510 Locust - Mercantile Building (A.H./Spinnaker)
921 Locust (UrbanStreet)
923 Locust - Noonan-Kocian Art Co. (UrbanSt.)
509 Olive - LaSalle Building (Rothschild)
511 Olive (Amos Harris / Spinnaker)
611 Olive - Railway Exchange Building (Rick Yackey)
777 Olive (Chemical)

West of Tucker:
401 N. Tucker - Jefferson Arms (David Jump)
1511 Washington (International Shoe)
1706 Washington (Old CPI HQ)
725 N. 23rd (Old Commercial Letter)
1717 Olive - Butler Brothers Building
1711 Locust - Locust St. Substation (Kopler)
1815 Locust - The Weber Building (TireMart)
3120 Market? - Municipal Courts plan dead?

South of Market:
200 S. 4th - Millennium Hotel