I know I'm going to step onto a big land mine, but wanted to raise this question.



I don't normally shop at Wal Mart because I'm not a fan of their poor to evil practices. (union busting, big box malls, overseas production, preditory pricing etc) However my girlfriend is particular about a couple of hair and skin care products that can't be found elesewhere so I find myself in there once a month.



Last month I was in there just after work on a weeknight to get what she needed. The story was pretty busy as people get ready for back-to-school. The checkout lines were long so I found myself waiting for a few minutes to get rung up.



As I looked around I noticed I was the only white person, customer or employee, in the checkout area. Didn't think much of it; just kind of went "hmph" and paid for my stuff.



Last night I was there for our monthly run. Didn't think about it until once again I got the the checkout area: we're the only white people within sight.



Like I said, I know I'm walking to the lions den, but I have to open this question to discusion. Why is it, when most of the surrounding towns are largely white, does the Maplewood Wal Mart draw such a large African American customer base?

BTW: here is 2000 census data for Maplewood and surrounding towns.



Maplewood The racial makeup of the city was 76.16% White, 15.93% African American, 0.33% Native American, 4.23% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 0.72% from other races, and 2.58% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.22% of the population.



Brentwood: The racial makeup of the city was 92.68% White, 1.81% African American, 0.19% Native American, 3.48% Asian, 0.32% from other races, and 1.51% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.73% of the population.



Clayton: The racial makeup of the city was 84.94% White, 7.77% African American, 0.12% Native American, 5.62% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.29% from other races, and 1.22% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.49% of the population.



Richmond Heights: The racial makeup of the city was 81.54% White, 13.32% African American, 0.25% Native American, 3.20% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.34% from other races, and 1.34% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.74% of the population.



Webster Groves: The racial makeup of the city was 90.87% White, 6.38% African American, 0.17% Native American, 1.21% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.31% from other races, and 1.05% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.25% of the population.

I hate wal-mart with every bone in my body... But i live right down the street and go there every once in a while... usually before camping, float trips. etc. I always see a very diverse demographic there.

I shop there every now and then because I'm never motivated to shop before Target closes... I ALWAYS see white folks shopping and working there. After midnight, no less...

Who shops at stores in that area has very little to do with the demographics of the adjacent communities. The developers knew what they were doing. Since there is so little retail in the city (and the near northwest burbs), lets create a shopping mecca for that entire area. I would love to know the percentage of sales tax dollars collected in Brentwood, Richmond Heights and Maplewood that originate in the city. I am sure it would blow everyone's mind (except for the developers and retail tenants). That is what that giant sucking sound is that you hear in the city.

jlblues wrote:Who shops at stores in that area has very little to do with the demographics of the adjacent communities. The developers knew what they were doing. Since there is so little retail in the city (and the near northwest burbs), lets create a shopping mecca for that entire area. I would love to know the percentage of sales tax dollars collected in Brentwood, Richmond Heights and Maplewood that originate in the city. I am sure it would blow everyone's mind (except for the developers and retail tenants). That is what that giant sucking sound is that you hear in the city.

Exactly.



If a WalMart in the western part of Maplewood can pull in this business, you have to wonder what a WalMart along North Grand or Natural Bridge would pull in?



While I view most big boxes with disdain*, it would be nice to see that sales tax revenue in the city.



*(Admittedly I can loose myself for an hour in BestBuy or Circuit City. What can I say, I'm a guy.)

jlblues wrote:I would love to know the percentage of sales tax dollars collected in Brentwood, Richmond Heights and Maplewood that originate in the city. I am sure it would blow everyone's mind (except for the developers and retail tenants). That is what that giant sucking sound is that you hear in the city.

I would be interested in seeing those figures as well. The lack of shopping options in the city is irritating. As far as clothing is concerned, I try to buy as much as I can from the downtown Famous, but their lack of selection and brands that I like forces me to go outside of the city limits for the stuff I want. And while Target and Radio Shack have decent selections of electronics, they don't measure up to that of Best Buy. And bookstores? Don't get me started.

Numbers in my masters thesis suggested well over 50% of city resident in-store retail spending is done in the county.



This also leads me to believe that the Highlands development on the old Arena site is the biggest waste of prime retail real estate in the city. Building office and residential space at that site was a HUGE mistake that the city will be costing the city for decades.

MattonArsenal wrote:Numbers in my masters thesis suggested well over 50% of city resident in-store retail spending is done in the county.



This also leads me to believe that the Highlands development on the old Arena site is the biggest waste of prime retail real estate in the city. Building office and residential space at that site was a HUGE mistake that the city will be costing the city for decades.

With the current Oakland Ave. interchange I don't think they could support a big box mall there. Then again Hanley/40/Eager isn't exactly a peach either.



Will be interesting what sort of city business the big boxes in that area will get when the new Metrolink line opens later this month. I could easily see some people (without cars) from deep into Illinois riding the train to the Richmond Heights and Brentwood stations to shop.

MattonArsenal wrote:This also leads me to believe that the Highlands development on the old Arena site is the biggest waste of prime retail real estate in the city. Building office and residential space at that site was a HUGE mistake that the city will be costing the city for decades.

Yes, it was a mistake. Although I wouldn't have wanted to see big-box retailers across from Forest Park, there is no reason why a high-density, mixed-use development like The Boulevard would not have worked there...well, other than the belief among local developers that no sane middle class or wealthy person would want to step one foot inside the city limits to do their shopping. Imagine if they had built something like that, with an upgraded pedestrian bridge over Hwy. 40, and parking/shuttles for the Muny and Zoo crowds...

my girlfriend works in the highlands...that place, what a snooze...Those lofts aren't selling worth a lick either. As for the eager interchange...what a clusterF--K. I don't want to be sensored so hopefully that works...

bpe235 wrote:my girlfriend works in the highlands...that place, what a snooze...Those lofts aren't selling worth a lick either. As for the eager interchange...what a clusterF--K. I don't want to be sensored so hopefully that works...

They're rentals, not condos.



If they're not going leased. It's because they want too much. $1350/mo for an 863 sq ft 1br and $1750/mo for a 1300 sq ft 2br. Those are Chicago prices.



http://highlandslofts.com/

Way too high for rent, when you can't walk from the Highlands to anywhere, except maybe the community college, and such students are hardly able to pay over $1,000 a month.

dweebe wrote:I know I'm going to step onto a big land mine, but wanted to raise this question.



I don't normally shop at Wal Mart because I'm not a fan of their poor to evil practices. (union busting, big box malls, overseas production, preditory pricing etc) However my girlfriend is particular about a couple of hair and skin care products that can't be found elesewhere so I find myself in there once a month.



Last month I was in there just after work on a weeknight to get what she needed. The story was pretty busy as people get ready for back-to-school. The checkout lines were long so I found myself waiting for a few minutes to get rung up.



As I looked around I noticed I was the only white person, customer or employee, in the checkout area. Didn't think much of it; just kind of went "hmph" and paid for my stuff.



Last night I was there for our monthly run. Didn't think about it until once again I got the the checkout area: we're the only white people within sight.



Like I said, I know I'm walking to the lions den, but I have to open this question to discusion. Why is it, when most of the surrounding towns are largely white, does the Maplewood Wal Mart draw such a large African American customer base?

well for one thing..they built the walmart right smack in the middle of a black community. is this an issue for you? have you been accosted or somthing?

courtland wrote:

dweebe wrote:I know I'm going to step onto a big land mine, but wanted to raise this question.



I don't normally shop at Wal Mart because I'm not a fan of their poor to evil practices. (union busting, big box malls, overseas production, preditory pricing etc) However my girlfriend is particular about a couple of hair and skin care products that can't be found elesewhere so I find myself in there once a month.



Last month I was in there just after work on a weeknight to get what she needed. The story was pretty busy as people get ready for back-to-school. The checkout lines were long so I found myself waiting for a few minutes to get rung up.



As I looked around I noticed I was the only white person, customer or employee, in the checkout area. Didn't think much of it; just kind of went "hmph" and paid for my stuff.



Last night I was there for our monthly run. Didn't think about it until once again I got the the checkout area: we're the only white people within sight.



Like I said, I know I'm walking to the lions den, but I have to open this question to discusion. Why is it, when most of the surrounding towns are largely white, does the Maplewood Wal Mart draw such a large African American customer base?

well for one thing..they built the walmart right smack in the middle of a black community. is this an issue for you? have you been accosted or somthing?

No. I have no problem with it at all. I choose to shop at any Wal Mart as little as possible because of their unfair business practices, not because of their customers.



I'm just wondering if other people are choosing to not shop there.



You call Maplewood a "black community": why? According to census figures it is mostly white:

Maplewood The racial makeup of the city was 76.16% White, 15.93% African American, 0.33% ...

dweebe wrote:I choose to shop at any Wal Mart as little as possible because of their unfair business practices, not because of their customers.



I'm just wondering if other people are choosing to not shop there.

I admire their business practices. I choose not to shop there because of their customers.

I might shop at Wal Mart if it was as nice as the one I went to while on vacation in Colorado.



Probably not though.

Walmart killed my family with low prices.

DeBaliviere wrote:I would be interested in seeing those figures as well. The lack of shopping options in the city is irritating. As far as clothing is concerned, I try to buy as much as I can from the downtown Famous, but their lack of selection and brands that I like forces me to go outside of the city limits for the stuff I want. And while Target and Radio Shack have decent selections of electronics, they don't measure up to that of Best Buy. And bookstores? Don't get me started.

You've described my predicament exactly.



I buy as many clothes as I can from the downtown Famous, but obviously the selection is not as good as you'll find at their former and current suburban flagship stores, the Galleria and West County locations, respectively. Hopefully that will change with the transition to Macy's, as they are already doing more with the downtown store than I expected.



I rely on the Hampton Village Target for many if not most of my needs. I'll go to Left Bank Books if I know what I'm looking for or what to order, but I still like going to Borders and/or Barnes & Noble especially for the magazine selection. And you're also right about electronics- it's hard to compete with Best Buy or Circuit City.



So, inevitably, I find myself in Brentwood and Richmond Heights more often than I'd like. I shop as much as I can in the city, but sooner or later I find myself shopping in that area, the Kirkwood/Sunset Hills/Crestwood area, or the Lindbergh/Highway 55 area, in that order.



Anyway, I try to shop at Wal-Mart as little as possible. I have no problem with capitalism per se, but I'm no fan of their business practices. I hate how their stores are always cluttered and usually unclean. And with $3.00 per gallon gasoline that's probably here to stay, I might as well spend a few more cents per item at Target and save myself the aggravation of driving to Maplewood or Kirkwood when that can be avoided.



On the few occasions when I've been to the Maplewood Wal-Mart, I've noticed a diverse crowd but never gave it much thought other than the fact that the city is clearly underserved when it comes to retail. I'm a stickler for shopping locally, but there's no doubt that the city would be well-served by SOME national retailers besides Macy's, Target, and a mere handful of others. And I agree with jlblues and others, as a grand opportunity was missed at the Highlands/former Arena site.

We HAVE seen big box retail in the city-St. Louis Marketplace. Unfortunately, it failed. I don't think a Walmart on Grand or Natural Bridge would do well, sorry. I too have noticed the large number of minorities, which I think is great. Now, they too have access to "quality" retail that people in west county do-not just Aldi and other crap. On the one hand, I am not a huge fan of Walmart, I wonder how much harm they actually cause, ie. forcing companies to make products in China/ closing American factories, Rubbermaid.. etc. On the other hand, they provide goods at a low cost. People then have more money to spend on other things. For the typical liberal (i'm going to get a lot of flack for this, i know) who allegedly cares SO much about the "little guy", they sure do not want them buying products at rock bottom prices.. But, I do understand some of the disdain for Walmart. Banning John Stewart's book? Come on!

^ You covered the range of the mixed emotions I experience whenever I think of Wal-Mart.



I could probably write a long yet incomplete thesis about why St. Louis Marketplace failed, particularly as it pertains to the site plan and its relation to the surrounding area, but in short I think it was the old real estate adage of 'location, location, location'.



I won't even begin to go into how the design plan was inappropriate for the city- despite the Marketplace's location on a former industrial site. That said, I think the location, the anchors, and particularly, the lack of relatively easy highway access doomed the site. If there was a connector to Interstate 44, or even if it was moved up to the Manchester/McCausland intersection, things may have been different.



Many suggestions for its redevelopment have been made, including some good ideas that were shared on this forum. I personally like the idea of an auto mall there. IMHO the city is also underserved by new car dealerships, unless you're in the market strictly for a domestic car or a Toyota/Scion product. I've bought four new cars in the last decade, all of which were purchased in St. Louis County. I'd prefer to purchase the car(s) that I want a little closer to home if it all possible, even though the sales tax I pay stays in the city anyway.

they built the walmart right smack in the middle of a black community.

You mean "on top of"? The three blocks of Hadley next door don't really count as a "black community" anymore I don't think.



I broke a few years of Walmart boycotting for an emergency at 3am, a couple months after they opened, and I've been in there one other time. I am afraid of it, just because it's dirty and half-wrecked already, even by standards of what I recall previous Walmart experiences to be like. Not a race thing -- most of my youthful Walmart shopping was done on West Florissant or the Rock Road. Maybe Walmart's just embraced the general premonition that it's dirty, half-wrecked, staffed by illiterates, et cetera but that you have to shop there because, well, you pretty much just have to and adopted that as their new mission statement -- "It sucks, but we can get away with it."



Or maybe all their illegal immigrant maintenance crews got deported and they're still playing catch-up.



And maybe it's just the Maplewood store.



Either way, mark me down for one white person afraid of Maplewood Walmart.

Why would they be afraid? Maybe you don't see a lot of white people there because they don't want to shop there or they have an alternative or well, who knows....

What I wonder is why you think they might be afraid?? Does whitey =Chicken Little in your eyes? FYI what scares whitey is property values dropping or presumed property values dropping not going to a diverse market. (and i don't speak for everyone but in general)

BTW you think blacks, asians or hispanics are afraid to shop at the Dierbergs near my house? Demographics show they live nearby but I can't recall ever seeing anyone that wasn't white....