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PostMar 04, 2008#26

Gentlemen,

The cost to the American PEOPLE is what matters. Lost jobs is not an excuse for saving $$. In the big picture, giving this contract to the EU bird may show some $$ saving, but weighed against the cost to the "people" those tangible $$ are insignificant compared to the intangible loss.

If the contratcs were billions of $$ apart, and you could justify that differential in savings by pumping the saved $$ for the American people, it would be OK. To call the Airbus product "superior" is bunk. <b>Both companies know that their products are near perfect machines and would satisfy requirements.</b> I am not jingoistic, but am indeed patriotic. I think under Bush we screwed up ALL our foreign policies, but this (if it is to mend fences with EU) should not be used as a tool to buy back EU favor. Please do not fail to understand the fact we are talking about a LOT of jobs.

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PostMar 04, 2008#27

zink wrote:
innov8ion wrote:If you mean to say the 767 is inferior because it is being replaced by the next generation 787, then that is a silly argument. By the way, the A350 replaces the A330 but Airbus is behind Boeing in development. Illegal subsidies from Europe gave Airbus the ability to even create the A350 when all its money was being sucked by the A380.


No, I am saying it is inferior to the A330. Longer range, more fuel effecient, larger... www.airliners.net to see their stats.


innov8ion wrote:Regarding jobs, the facts are here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080223/ap_ ... rce_tanker. I don't have facts regarding revenue sharing between EADS and Northrop but it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest something like 80/20. If revenue sharing can be seen as a function of employment, 5,000 divided by 44,000 would suggest a 90/10 revenue split.


I have seen your previous posts before and they are always logical... but I think you know that 44k is a BS #. Boeing already employees those people, as well as has their own facility to build the 767. Only new employees would be to beef up the plant. This EADS deal is building a WHOLE NEW plant in AL to actually assemble the darn plane. Of couse the parts are already made from around the world (mostly Germany, England, France)


innov8ion wrote:That is not a smart argument considering EADS was late by approximately 2 years with the introduction of the A380. In comparison, 787 delays are minor and reasonable for a new platform. Given that the 767 platform is tried and true and Boeing has actually delivered the 767 Tanker to Italy and Japan, low risk has been validated. You know, in contrast to EADS never developing a tanker.


Of course Boeing did have their share of problems with delivering those tankers. Including paying a nice fee to Japan for their delay. I just found out the first 767 was just delivered 2 weeks ago. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/200 ... 9e_nr.html



EADS already has a tanker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310_MRTT



Australia, UK, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and now US will be sporting the new EADS Tanker.



It is called Globalization. Why arent you complaining that over half of the new 787 is built outside of the united states? If it weren't for the rest of the world, Boeing would be dead in the water right now as most of their commercial orders are all from other countries.



As a tax payer, if the overall price/value is better going with EADS go with them please.






Going back to St. Louis and this tanker contract, I do not think it will affect them that adversely. I am willing to bet they will go back to the boards for a 777 tanker and win the rest of the orders.


Have you ever heard of a concept like national security? Us giving away the tanker production gives away a lever over us. If one of the countries decides they don't like our global policy, they can stop deliveries. And then what?



And the job thing is a joke. Do you realize how many Boeing people will lose jobs in two years when 767 will shut down. Yes, there will be a NEW factory, but how many OLD factories will close? And this is during an economic downturn!!!

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PostMar 04, 2008#28

I can imagine things may change under a Democrat president and Congress not willing to sell its soul to make up for a poor foreign policy track record.


This is EXACTLY what happened, imo. I voted for Bush twice...i know..whoops. This is the administrations little way of mending fences, but alas it is far too late.



I still can't believe this happened to Boeing! what a joke! EAD'S FIRST tanker!?! why in the hell would we do this!?



Still: :evil:

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PostMar 04, 2008#29

drunkrusski wrote: Have you ever heard of a concept like national security? Us giving away the tanker production gives away a lever over us. If one of the countries decides they don't like our global policy, they can stop deliveries. And then what?


You watch FAUX NEWS dont you....

Concerning National Security: We are receiving a plane from EADS, while Northrop oversees the project. Considering their main products are nuclear warships... i think i can handle them taking ownership in project management for the tanker program. Countries already hate us as well as our foreign policy. But since there is this thing called global trade, countries will deal with it and trade goods and services, even communist china!


drunkrusski wrote: And the job thing is a joke. Do you realize how many Boeing people will lose jobs in two years when 767 will shut down. Yes, there will be a NEW factory, but how many OLD factories will close? And this is during an economic downturn!!!


I would rather have their 767 line end now so they can free up room for another line of the 787, that is where the money is for Boeing.





Now I am basing all my comments/reasonings that the Air force made a logical business decision to go with EADS over Boeing. If I were Boeing, yes i would want to know exactly why I lost considering all tax dollars that remain in the US.



But it seems a lot of people (especially in Ohio) do not like free trade. They like their cushy jobs, and think they dont have to work hard for it. Airbus was the greatest thing to consumers, it made them work harder, and thus produce better aircraft. Dont hate the player, hate the game. :)



I will stop commenting until I hear exactly why Boeing lost. If it was political, hopefully more goverment officials will go to jail! Make the country a better and safer place to live. :)

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PostMar 04, 2008#30

Boeing response: http://boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080304b_nr.html



For a 179 aircraft fleet over a 40-year service life, the Airbus 330-200 will consume about $14.6 billion more fuel than the Boeing 767-200ER. Ref: http://www.boeing.com/ids/globaltanker/ ... Report.pdf

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PostMar 04, 2008#31

Sounds like trouble started at the top for Boeing. Arrogance and greed and denial is slowly destroying America. This fact will be casually dismissed with more arrogance from the typical American who knows/cares about these kind of things. It's going to be slow painful death but I'm hoping for a quick one. Only then will things change, maybe. But we'll all be long dead so, America, just turn on American Idol and grab another drink.



But I'm probably just overreacting.

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PostMar 04, 2008#32

^ Perhaps you could substantiate your blather instead of coming off looking like a fool.

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PostMar 04, 2008#33

innov8ion wrote:Boeing response: http://boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080304b_nr.html



For a 179 aircraft fleet over a 40-year service life, the Airbus 330-200 will consume about $14.6 billion more fuel than the Boeing 767-200ER. Ref: http://www.boeing.com/ids/globaltanker/ ... Report.pdf


True, it will burn more fuel, because it is larger. Are there specs on Fuel burn effeciency? Such as Fuel burn per passenger, or in this case per fuel? :)





It seems Boeing is argueing that the Airforce gave them specs, Boeing delivered, and then the Airforce changed minds about what they wanted. (Larger fueler) If this is the case... I am not sure what will happen. Since I have no idea on how goverment contracts operate, I would assume Boeing will argue false pretenses in the sense that they 'never had a chance' since the Airforce told them one thing, but really wanted another.



I am surprised that they did lose in "risk"... interesting

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PostMar 05, 2008#34

The facts are not yet out, but should be Mar 12 (or sooner if Boeing can get this hearing moved)

I believe this slap to Boeing has deeper meaning than just "theirs was better" deal. All in all, please do not fail to understand that American companies monetary gain is closely tied to American workers bonus and wages. We are talking of creating 5000 new jobs thru EADS and possibly losing 40,000 existing jobs from Boeing.

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PostMar 05, 2008#35

how successful has EADS' jumbo plane been? hasn't that almost bankrupted EADS? Is this still the case? this article below is from 2006.


The Airbus A-380 superjumbo jet, which will be the world's largest passenger plane when it starts service late this year, inspires awe for its sheer size. From wingtip to wingtip, it's wider than two common Boeing 737s side by side.



But, increasingly, the giant plane has become a giant problem for the European company that's building it. The recent focus has been on production problems that have put the big jet a year behind schedule and well over budget.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/ ... usat_x.htm

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PostMar 05, 2008#36

I think y'all are missing the biggest point here: There weren't two American aerospace companies who could compete against each other on their own for this contract.

PostMar 05, 2008#37

The causes for the problems in this procurement are systemic and date back for decades. The U.S. unfortunately now has an economic structure in the aerospace industry that precludes a fair contract competition for this type of defense contract between solely American competitors. Although the loss of American jobs (and domestic control of a national security concernt) should be an issue, it's pretty hard to make it an issue at the end of the procurement process. (In other words, if it was to have been an issue, EADS simply should not have allowed to compete. But that would result in, rather than a competition, a no-bid contract.)



Unfortunately, the main solution to this would have been to avoid the severe concentration and consolidation in the domestic aerospace industry, but that horse is long out of the barn.



P.S. This was a reply to zink, whose post has mysteriously disappeared.

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PostMar 05, 2008#38

^

Yea, i finally understood your point. Took a couple rereads to understand what you meant. :) So i deleted the post.

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PostMar 05, 2008#39

bonwich wrote:I think y'all are missing the biggest point here: There weren't two American aerospace companies who could compete against each other on their own for this contract.
Note: These are my opinions after reading much public material.



Exactly bonwich, it is in the best interest of American taxpayers for there to be a competition. And first and foremost, it should be a fair competition. Fair means taking illegal European subsidies into account (US has protested European subsidies to EADS in the WTO.) Of primary importance, it also means not fundamentally changing selection criteria after the RFP has been submitted. Just conducting a fair competition is more important than the issues with both profits and US jobs going overseas instead of them staying at home in the midst of a recession.



We should not ignore that environments are in flux. You see, the Air Force has a need for more airlift capability. They've recently requested more C-17's yet the Congress has been shooting them down due to budget constraints. This, after the Tanker RFP was issued. As you can imagine, this puts the Air Force in a bind and I think this is why it appears they've changed the selection criteria for the Tanker to also emphasize greater airlift capability, necessitating a larger platform.



More info will become available soon, and not necessarily the whole truth, on how the decision was made. The Air Force will likely say the criteria had not changed, that there were other factors. But the inability for Congress to meet Air Force airlift needs suggests otherwise. You see, altering the selection criteria after the RFP puts the procurement process in serious question. Serious enough for an investigation which I personally think should include John McCain's activities.



If you think I could be full of it, listen to Goldman Sachs. "Amid broader specifications, Boeing then considered basing its tanker on its newer, larger 777 aircraft. In the end it opted to stick with the 767, which may have been a mistake. "We thought the Air Force preferred a smaller aircraft (had it been otherwise, Boeing would have offered the 777)," Goldman Sachs analysts wrote Sunday." Ref: http://tinyurl.com/2ztfqt



Or how about Credit Suisse's Robert Spingam? "Spingarn thinks a protest is likely after Boeing receives its debrief from Pentagon officials on March 12. He and other analysts expressed surprise that Air Force procurement officials appeared to favor the A330's bigger capacity over the 767's apparent lower operating costs. "We think Boeing would have bid the 777, rather than the 767, if that weighting had been clearer," Spingarn writes." Ref: http://tinyurl.com/2t3q7k



Check out the statement of Air Force General Hoffman. His words indicate just how important airlift capability is to him, even mentioning why he won't need to crossload onto a C-130 or C-17. Too bad this emphasis didn't appear to be reflected in the RFP. "The KC-45 is a tanker first, but the cargo capacity will be very useful," the general said. "The new tanker will be able to haul people and cargo directly to military airfields instead of having to cross-load onto C-130 (Hercules aircraft) or C-17 (Globemaster IIIs), which is what we do now." Ref: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123088536



But more damning is this statement from the head of Boeing's defense unit, "If they had wanted a big airplane, obviously we could offer the 777," Albaugh added, "and we were discouraged from offering the 777."



After studying the history, I do believe Boeing proposed the best tanker to meet the Air Force's request (RFP.) I think the question begs to be asked, is changing the rules at the end of a game how our government should conduct its business? Given the gravity of the contract and apparent government missteps, perhaps a recompete is in order.

PostMar 05, 2008#40

If this apparent bait and switch at the expense of a respected American defense contractor upsets you, I recommend you contact your U.S. Representative and Senators and tell them how you feel. At stake are no less than thousands upon thousands of American jobs, the strength of our country's aerospace industrial base, and our own government's procurement integrity.



- Representative Contact: https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml

- Senate Contact: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_i ... m?State=MO

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PostMar 05, 2008#41

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine ... enDocument


Air Force head says winning tanker is better plane

By Ben Evans

ASSOCIATED PRESS

03/05/2008



WASHINGTON -- The European refueling tanker that won a $35 billion Pentagon contract last week "was clearly a better performer" than its U.S. rival, Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne told lawmakers Wednesday.



Speaking at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing, Wynne said the plane offered by European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. and its U.S. partner, Northrop Grumman Corp., was determined to be less expensive and less risky than the plane offered by Chicago-based Boeing Co.



The planes were judged on nine key criteria, he said, and "across the spectrum, all evaluated, the Northrop Grumman airplane was clearly a better performer."

Jim Albaugh, top executive of Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems, said the company was surprised to lose the contract, and believes its proposal would have been a better choice.



"We offered an airplane that was more cost-effective. We offered an airplane that met the requirements better than the competition, and of lower risk," Albaugh told a Citigroup conference of defense analysts in New York.


Well, Mr. Albaugh, apparently the Air Force disagrees.

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PostMar 05, 2008#42

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Well, Mr. Albaugh, apparently the Air Force disagrees.
Albaugh simply stated that Boeing's proposal best reflected both the RFP and guidance from the Air Force that dissuaded Boeing from proposing the larger KC-777. That the Air Force rationalized larger size (to include enhanced range, fuel and cargo capacity) as a distinguishing factor in the tanker selection indicates a disconnect between the Air Force-issued RFP and the final decision. Therefore, the government's procurement integrity appears to be at risk here. That in itself is no small matter and according to news headlines today, is setting off a political firestorm.



Add what is known about the Air Force's misleading guidance to Boeing with a leak by defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute and the intrigue increases. This gentleman leaked information that shouldn't have been shared publicly before Boeing was briefed. What is interesting to note is that he is known to have extremely close ties to the senior members in procurement that made the tanker decision. The thinking is that his leaks would serve to defend their decision. Think about it, why would there be a need for such a leak unless you, as the deciding committee, knew you were doing something wrong?



Additionally, why were both companies surprised by the outcome? Boeing was largely considered by defense analysts to be the favorite. Analysts who are paid to know the industry inside and out are rarely wrong.



There is simply too much here that doesn't add up. You'd like to see the truth come out, but many times it's just swept underneath the rug.

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PostMar 05, 2008#43

innov8ion wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Well, Mr. Albaugh, apparently the Air Force disagrees.
Albaugh simply stated that Boeing's proposal best reflected both the RFP and guidance from the Air Force that dissuaded Boeing from proposing the larger KC-777. That the Air Force rationalized larger size (to include enhanced range, fuel and cargo capacity) as a distinguishing factor in the tanker selection indicates a disconnect between the Air Force-issued RFP and the final decision. Therefore, the government's procurement integrity appears to be at risk here.


Of course, it is also possible that the government's procurement integrity in just fine, and Boeing misunderstood the RFP process.

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PostMar 05, 2008#44

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Of course, it is also possible that the government's procurement integrity in just fine, and Boeing misunderstood the RFP process.
Sure, apparently Boeing misunderstood the Air Force's literal guidance to propose a 767 platform when what they really wanted in the end was a 777-sized platform. How could a company be so obtuse, right? I agree, how could it? :idea:



The Boeing debrief is tomorrow, 3/7. We will see what comes of that.

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PostMar 10, 2008#45

Interesting New York Times article.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/busin ... nted=print


Boeing, the pride of American aerospace, was outmaneuvered on its home turf for a contract that could grow to $100 billion, becoming one of the largest military purchases in history.



Boeing received a detailed briefing from the Pentagon on Friday about why its bid fell short. Now it must decide by Wednesday whether to file a formal appeal.



The company and its allies in Washington have already made a number of arguments. Among them are that too many American jobs are being lost overseas, and that sensitive military contracts should not be in the hands of a foreign company.



The debate about the impact on American jobs is a murky one, because large manufacturing projects typically involve operations in many parts of the world, regardless of which company has a contract.

Boeing, the heavy favorite to win the contract, having built earlier tankers, promised a new boom but did not build a prototype. One analyst who followed the contest said that Boeing, based in Chicago, seemed arrogant and offered a plan that Air Force officials thought would deliver only 19 tankers by 2013 compared with 49 by the Airbus team.



“The Boeing team was not responsive and often was not even polite,” said Loren B. Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va., based on conversations he said he had with defense officials. “Somehow that all eluded senior management,” Mr. Thompson said. “They were not even aware there was a problem.”



William Barksdale, a Boeing spokesman who attended the Air Force debriefing on Friday, said Boeing asked “whether we were hard to get along with.” He said Air Force officials had no complaints in that area.


a lot more to read...

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PostMar 10, 2008#46

Dam, looking back at my responses on this topic it looks like everything I have been saying.



1. Being a #1 does make companies arragont. That is why competition is GGRREEAAATT.

2. The job #s can not be verified.

3. Boeing is not laying off any people especially on the 767 line because.. they need more space, more people to build more commercial planes.

3a. They might 'can' some top executives/planners who messed the thing up. Not sure how IDS will fair though, I am sure bonus will not be pretty as if they had won the contract.



I do find it strange that Boeing could only offer 19 planes by 2013? Especially since they already know how to make them. While Airbus can make 49. (I would like to bet they DONT make that #, which will only allow Boeing to compete for the next portion of the contract)

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PostMar 10, 2008#47

^^ There is nothing new there. Loren Thompson is the defense analyst that leaked information he shouldn't have in sync with the announcement. Where did he get this information? It could only been given to him for distribution by the procurement committee to aid in the cover-up. Everything Loren said recently has been anti-Boeing whereas other analysts are able to maintain objectivity and actually point out issues in the procurement process. The evidence indicative of funny-business is strong and has nothing to do with jobs or giving the bid to a foreign defense contractor.



1. Both companies and the defense analysts were surprised with the decision.

2. The requirements changed after the RFP.

3. Boeing was discouraged by the Air Force to submit a larger platform that would have been competitive with their revised requirements.



This quote shows that even Loren Thompson knew Boeing's proposal was better matched to the Air Force's RFP in March 2007, yet somehow he managed to pull a 180 degree turn a year later. Very fishy, Mr. Thompson.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/03/when_frogs_fly.asp wrote:The whole thing stunk, but six years later, Boeing remains the odds-on favorite to win the contract, which may end up totaling $100 billion. Why? The A330 would carry more fuel, more passengers, and more cargo than the Boeing KC-767. But the Lexington Institute's Loren Thompson still expects "Boeing to win the competition" because their plane is "a better match for the mission the way the Air Force describes it." Said Thompson, the Air Force is "primarily looking at refueling," which "tends to undercut" the bid by Airbus.



Thompson says "the Air Force separates [the refueling mission] fairly severly from the cargo mission . . . so they don't trip over each other in wartime."


Basically, it is clear that the government's will is not to be stopped.

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PostMar 10, 2008#48

innov8ion wrote:2. The requirements changed after the RFP.


Example?



And, if it did change, why did Airbus respond accordingly, and Boeing didn't?

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PostMar 10, 2008#49

^ All you have to do is look back one page to have your answer...




Check out the statement of Air Force General Hoffman. His words indicate just how important airlift capability is to him, even mentioning why he won't need to crossload onto a C-130 or C-17. Too bad this emphasis didn't appear to be reflected in the RFP. "The KC-45 is a tanker first, but the cargo capacity will be very useful," the general said. "The new tanker will be able to haul people and cargo directly to military airfields instead of having to cross-load onto C-130 (Hercules aircraft) or C-17 (Globemaster IIIs), which is what we do now."



But more damning is this statement from the head of Boeing's defense unit, "If they had wanted a big airplane, obviously we could offer the 777," Albaugh added, "and we were discouraged from offering the 777."

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PostMar 10, 2008#50

^^ Did you not read my post, CS? Loren Thompson, defense analyst, said in March 2007 that Boeing's proposal best matched the Air Force's requirements (RFP.) All the defense analysts knew that. Yet EADS was later awarded the contract and the distinguishing factor, primarily size (by extension, range, fuel & cargo capacity), was contrary to the RFP. This is a violation of procurement integrity as it's unethical to change selection criteria after the RFP has been issued.



And it does not matter why Airbus offered the A330 as it did not match the Air Force's RFP closely. I think the Air Force knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted different-sized platforms in case Congress stopped funding the C-17. And wouldn't you know it, just six days ago the Pentagon stated it needs no more C-17's. Coincidence? One would be a fool to think it so. Ref: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRel ... 3420080305



The Air Force purposely misled Boeing in order to better manage their risk. All the rest is pure bullsh*t to distract from the truth. What the truth shows is that the government's will is to be done whether it is ethical or not.

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