MattnSTL wrote:Speaking of Bike STL, the GIS lab at SLU has a really detailed map of the route and the surrounding built environment. I will have to take a pic of it next week. The trail system will be a nice asset to St. Louis.
OK, back to the topic.
The GIS lab cranks out some pretty interesting maps of the City, I've noticed. I wish they were done by neighborhood and not census tract though. I realize that's harder to do. Oh well.
Speaking of maps from the GIS lab, I actually got to choose all those maps in the hallway. It was rather tough, because there where so many interesting candidates. It is a cool lab. Hopefully I will start learning some soon.
This also reminded me. The GIS lab is possibly working on a partnership with a company that takes arial photos of anywhere you want to pay for, from 15 different views at once, instead of just vertical. The technology is really cool, because it can give exact measurements, and even measure topography, along with many other things. They had a really cool demonstration on Tuesday. I don't really know much more about it though.
Been lurking for awhile, thought I would jump in....I am visiting WashU in a couple of weeks and want to use the visit to get the lay of land and look at possible neighborhoods if we end up moving to Stl this fall. Can anyone provide any ideas on what neighborhoods my fiancee and I should check out on this initial visit?
Here is what I am thinking:
-Want to be intown and ideally close to WashU, although not the end of the world if not in the WashU area
-Want to buy-looking to spend 150k to 250k (i know wide range but still a lot of things up in the air at this early stage!)
-Probably look at condos but if can afford would like to look at older houses/townhomes
Other posters are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject, but as a fellow St. Louis (city) househunter, I hope you may find the following thoughts helpful:
Being near Washington University per se is not an objective for my wife and me, but architectural/design quality and being near MetroLink and the Delmar Loop are.
For that reason, we've been looking north of Delmar in an area known as Cabanne, though some have referred to it as Visitation Park. As outlined in the Built St. Louis site (which you MUST visit if you haven't already), Cabanne's boundaries are: Page Boulevard to the north; Delmar Boulevard to the south; Skinker and Hodiamont to the west; and Union Boulevard to the east.
The housing stock is very late 19th/early 20th century, and for the most part built for people of means. Big, three story houses, not in cookie-cutter lines or rows, though clearly using the same design/decorative vocabulary. Streets are wide, with elegant setbacks and deep rear gardens. I have yet to see anything priced over $200,000, and sometimes, the prices are less than $100,000 for a house that's habitable but needs updating (not total rehab). There are multifamily dwellings, but they do not predominate.
While there's been some deterioration, abandonment and demolition, the neighborhood's superb location--coupled with the slow-but-sure rise in the fortunes of North St. Louis in general, as evidenced if only by new construction--bode well for its future prospects.
So how come Cabanne is, relatively, so cheap? Because black people live there. Just across Delmar, if I have my geography and place-names right, in a neighborhood called Skinker-DeBaliviere--which is much whiter, though not exclusively so--the houses are big, somewhat later, and easily $50K to $150K higher in price (though condition is generally better as well).
The neighborhood my wife and I live in now is majority minority historic district in New York which has become very hot. We know from experience that very often, the best housing values in any city can be found in formerly swanky neighborhoods that whites fled after World War II and later. We also know that people are people. They want to get dinner on the table, get laundry and homework done, and get ready for work the next day--just like us.
In moving to St. Louis, we have no intention of living in some hopeless slum. But we also have no intention of paying more to live in neighborhoods where whites constitute the numerical majority or will soon enough. Once those neighborhoods-- places like Shaw, Tower Grove, Soulard--become even more unaffordable than they are now, there'll be more white faces walking down the streets of Cabanne and other St. Louis neighborhoods like it, looking for a great house in a great location at a great price.
You can beat the rush now and get a 2500+ square foot house for under $150K, sometimes a lot under. Values for solid but more modest houses are even more unbelievable.
Been lurking for awhile, thought I would jump in....I am visiting WashU in a couple of weeks and want to use the visit to get the lay of land and look at possible neighborhoods if we end up moving to Stl this fall. Can anyone provide any ideas on what neighborhoods my fiancee and I should check out on this initial visit?
Here is what I am thinking:
-Want to be intown and ideally close to WashU, although not the end of the world if not in the WashU area
-Want to buy-looking to spend 150k to 250k (i know wide range but still a lot of things up in the air at this early stage!)
-Probably look at condos but if can afford would like to look at older houses/townhomes
Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.
I must say bencharif's knowledge of the area, despite not being a resident, and, to my knowledge, having never been one, continues to amaze me.
But back on topic, and to be blunt and very St. Louisan-like, as bencharif was hinting, if you're white, there'll probably be certain areas you'll want to live and some you won't. Some of those areas have unfair reputations and others can be quite dangerous. Actually, though, Washington University is located in the heart of the most posh area of St. Louis City and its two most cosmopolitan suburbs, Clayton and University City. The Clayton area is quite expensive, though, where even smaller one-family units approach 300k in most instances. University City offers a bit cheaper housing stock but just as elegant...that is, of course, until you cross Delmar to the north and then property values fall off.
Most of the area in the proximity of Wash U is St. Louis City's tiny "Skinker-Wydown" neighborhood which blends into Clayton. These houses, even in the City where public schools are substandard, are very expensive and large.
The Skinker-Debalivere neighborhood could probably find you houses in the price range you want. That's about 5-10 minutes from Wash U.
Dogtown, located a couple minutes south-southeast of Wash U, is a charming city neighborhood where you could find newly opening condos/apartments as well as some older, cheaper single and double family units. I haven't really checked my pricing on housing lately, but, I believe Dogtown is mostly between 80k and 220k for houses, give or take a little. For more info on Dogtown, see the other "may be moving to St. Louis" post at the link below:
But back on topic, and to be blunt and very St. Louisan-like, as bencharif was hinting, if you're white, there'll probably be certain areas you'll want to live and some you won't.
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With respect, Matt, I think you misread the thrust of my post. I was not hinting that some neighborhoods are not safe for whites to live in. To be blunt, I was trying to say is that in my opinion it's crazy to pay a premium to live in an all or mostly white neighborhood. Especially if we're talking about a neighborhood like Cabanne, whose houses are gracious and beautifully sited, and whose street life seems pretty tame and benign.
The (mostly but not exclusively black) people we saw on streets like Enright and Hamilton and Delmar were on their day off, warming up their cars, talking to the mailman, sweeping the walk. They looked like anybody and everybody--postal clerks and bus drivers and cooks and maybe a teacher here and there. I'd call the street scene comfortably routine, almost predictably dull.
I also said that, having lived in some of New York's REALLY bad neighborhoods, like the Lower East Side and Fort Greene and Red Hook (all of them reviled as slums and all of them now chic and pricey), I had come to understand that people are people and want to live their lives in peace, as I do.
I've seen how, not always but often, a crime wave turns out to be a 14-year-old kid with a rock or a knife or talent for hotwiring cars or a tendency to walk off with anything that's within sight and not nailed down. And then he's caught and it stops for a while, until another 14-year-old with too many hormones and too little supervision does something stupid.
From what I hear, they have stupid 14-year-olds in all or mostly white neighborhoods, too.
Fair enough. Sorry if I misinterpreted you. I do think the sad fact of St. Louis is that it's just not that viable to live north of Delmar if you're white because of racism going both ways.
Well, we're about to prove you wrong. I'll post the invitation to the housewarming right here. The food will be copious and delicious, the jazz just avant garde enough, and our St. Louis friends and neighbors (whom we've mostly yet to meet) warm and welcoming. Deal?
bencharif wrote:Well, we're about to prove you wrong. I'll post the invitation to the housewarming right here. The food will be copious and delicious, the jazz just avant garde enough, and our St. Louis friends and neighbors (whom we've mostly yet to meet) warm and welcoming. Deal?
Lafayette Square is probably out of your range by now. That 'hood is blowing up. You could probably still find a condo under $250,000 in the Central West End. I would definitely take a day to drive through a number of South Side and central corridor neighborhoods and see what feels good to you.
Skinker-DeBaliviere is an excellent choice. I've seen rehabbed houses and well-maintained houses for $225k-250k. You could walk to Wash U., Forest Park and the Loop, and it's very close to the CWE and downtown. The neighborhood even has its own MetroLink stop!
Here are some houses for sale in Skinker-DeBaliviere
My recommendations would be to look at the Central West End, Midtown, or Downtown if you want a mid-rise or high-rise condo/loft. If you want a house, I'd look more at Dogtown, the hill area, Southtown, Tower Grove Park, Lafayette Square or St. Louis hills.
To do a tour of the city's neighborhoods, I'd start around Wash U. and head east until you hit downtown. Then, go south to Soulard and start heading West - this will take you through Lafayette Square, Tower Grove Park, the Hill area, and Dogtown.
I couldn't agree with the postings that make note of the racial divide more. Portions of my family grew up on the north side and left during the early 60's for the suburbs. The only reason they left was to escape the perceived "undesirables" who were moving in. This is probably the main reason why I chose to move back and raise my own family in the city 15 years ago. I believe that one day many neighborhoods north of Delmar will be revived and a few already are moving in that direction. Unfortantly with a state motto that exhibts pessimism like the phrase Show Me does. It willl probably take those people who have come here from other cities to lead the way. However everyone should keep in mind that a provincial attitude still pervades the local real estate community. Unless you plan on living in a home located in certain areas for an extended period of time you might not be ably to get the money back that you put in it. I have friends that moved to Hyde Park in the early 80's much like those who were moving into Lafeyette Square and Soulard. Needless to say many of those who have had to move during the preceding 20 years have not been able to get their money back. But those who were able to wait it out are finely begining to see property values in the area rising to a point that their investments are paying off.
Matt Drops The H wrote:Fair enough. Sorry if I misinterpreted you. I do think the sad fact of St. Louis is that it's just not that viable to live north of Delmar if you're white because of racism going both ways.
Matt Drops The H, while I think it's important to stay on topic, I think that attitude is one of the reasons why St. Louis has racial problems. It sounds like you have had limited exposure north of Delmar or have been socialized to have a one-dimensional perception about north St. Louis or "north of Delmar". No offense intended.
That's like me perceiving the reverse about south of Delmar. It's simply not true.
In fact, whites, Asians, Latinos, and others do live in many neighborhoods north of Delmar. Check the city's demographics. North St. Louis may not be as diverse percentage wise as other parts of the city, but whites are living in neighborhoods like Walnut Park West, North Pointe, Riverview, Baden, O'Fallon, and plenty of others ? even neighborhoods not as nice. Many are long time residents.
Although I am African-American, there are some areas of north St. Louis (and the city in general) I would not live because of high crime or excessive blight; however, there are plenty of neighborhoods that I would. There are plenty of neighborhoods north of Delmar that are just as viable for me just as there are for people who happen to be white.
Also, go just one block north of Delmar to West End Estates (around Belt, Union, Goodfellow, Page) and drive around. You'll see non-blacks living in some of those new homes.
I have had the pleasure of photographing north St. Louis and have seen whites going about their regular business. While photographing Walnut Park West the man in the picture below is white although you can't tell. He was fixing his gate. Other family members present outside were white. They had no care in the world about my presence. This is near Goodfellow (far north).
Visit St. Louis' first urban topics forum started by me: stlouisrising.yuku.com
I got those listings off realtor.com. You can't search by specific neighborhood, but they do have the city broken into four quadrants: South-Southwest St. Louis (includes Tower Grove, Southampton, St. Louis Hills), East of Grand (includes downtown, Soulard, Lafayette Square), Central (Central West End, Skinker-DeBaliviere, some of the neighborhoods directly north of Delmar), and North Side.
As a Skinker-DeBaliviere resident I can't recommend it highly enough. It's about as close to Wash U as you can get and still be in the city. You have the Delmar Metrolink station, the DeBaliviere station, and sometime next year you'll have the Skinker station. You're within walking distance of Forest Park and all it has to offer. You're within walking distance of the ever-expanding Delmar Loop. There's a wide range of housing stock, so you could start small and move to massive someday and never have to leave the neighborhood. It's a wonderfully diverse neighborhood. You're close to just about everything. I could go on, but I'll just say click on the map above, then click on #46 and see for yourself.
Feinberg Realtors seem to sell a lot in the neighborhood and they have an office on Skinker. I think they specialize in city listings in general.
Aha! Now that stlrox has brought up realtors, I'd like to mention the guy we're working with, who is very knowledgeable, endlessly patient and seems to understand intuitively what we're looking for. He is also MAJORLY committed to the revitalization of the city in general and North St. Louis in particular. We consider ourselves very lucky to be working with him.
I have my difference with the guy (some pretty major, but oh well, everyones different), but if you do need a realtor that knows the city, especially if you don't know it, it probably is Steve Patterson.
Matt Drops The H, while I think it's important to stay on topic, I think that attitude is one of the reasons why St. Louis has racial problems. It sounds like you have had limited exposure north of Delmar or have been socialized to have a one-dimensional perception about north St. Louis or "north of Delmar". No offense intended.
None taken. And I hope you don't take offense at my comments either.
I do think that the problems of the North Side are a bit leaning towards perception more than reality. The pictures of North Pointe and Walnut Park show that the North Side can look as nice or nicer than the South Side. You are correct to assume I have had little exposure to north of Delmar, but that is not something I am proud of. Ever since my car got stolen at SLU (not on the North Side, I know, but close enough for some), my parents always tell me that they won't help me out of the next car stealing if they found out I was in a neighborhood "I didn't need to be." In regards to the North Side being diverse...I know that all of the Neighborhoods north of 40 minus the central corridor neighborhoods add up to 95% black population. I had to calculate it for a report I did in school. There are diverse pockets in the North Side, but it has a way to go.
However, I have been taking random driving trips up North, and most of what I have seen has impressed me very much. I think there's a very large hill to climb in the marketing of North St. Louis to whites (and to other races and backgrounds), but I think it could happen in time.
I'm very South/Mid oriented as far as the area goes, so I don't know if I'd like to live too far North, but, assuming I could pick anywhere to live in North St. Louis, I think I'd like the Hyde Park or Old North neighborhoods.