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PostMay 05, 2008#51

I am reminded of a class I had taken in my undergrad for Political Geography. The class was part of the degree programs focused on international politics and diplomacy, and the majority of case studies were on multinational relations and the determinant factors of Geopolitics. One of our focuses was on the ethnic delineations across Nigeria and how that impacts the state’s oil production; another was on the concept of Balkanization and how that interplayed into the wars in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s.



Imagine my surprise when my class, in a school in Ohio, focused an entire session on Saint Louis City’s separation from Saint Louis County. It clearly delved into the secession of the City from the County based upon paying for transportation infrastructure, then to the socioeconomic and geopolitical divergences that took place afterwards. The second hour was on Indianapolis, which had bridged its City / County Divide a decade earlier, and the benefits it was receiving since then. During the break between segments, people were coming to me, the Saint Louis resident, and were nearly dumbfounded understanding how the City and County were so separate and unable to come together. Clearly, stuff like this never happened in Cleveland.



Aside from economics, the biggest problem I have seen regarding a City / County merger is that too many politicians have too much power to consolidate. The number of Aldermanic seats in the City is too high, but the last time consolidation was attempted, it was fought by the Aldermanic Council, as no one wanted to see their fiefdoms disappear. Remember how it was portrayed on billboards with confederate flags around town? That’s how far politicians will fight this issue to retain their little bits of power. Meanwhile, the County now has 92 independent cities operating within itself, and none of those city’s officials want to see their jobs swallowed up in intra-county consolidation. While there is only one Mayor in Saint Louis, the County has 92 Mayors; all those attached egos don't want to just pack up their cities and have their titles disappear.



This issue may get deeper, too. Last Thursday, I was at the State Legislative Meeting in South County regarding the Trash Districts in unincorporated StL County. A Missouri Legislator (won’t say who) posited that unincorporated South County maybe should start establishing more cities, like the City of Affton or the City of Concord, to consolidate more control over County Government actions. Should this grab some feet, we could see another 15+ cities spring up across unincorporated StL County.



While I want a merger to take place, I’m scared we’re moving in the opposite direction. The Powers That Be don’t want to risk losing power.

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PostMay 05, 2008#52

kromers451 wrote:I think at this point it would easier to have the larger communities in the county (Ballwin, Wildwood, Kirkwood, University City, Webster Groves, etc.) annexed the smaller communities (Warson Woods, Town and Country, Country Life Acres, etc.).


That's fine, just as long as Warson Woods is annexed by Ladue. It would be good for my property value. :)

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PostMay 05, 2008#53

Gone Corporate wrote:While I want a merger to take place, I’m scared we’re moving in the opposite direction. The Powers That Be don’t want to risk losing power.


Jihad vs McWorld my friends. This fragmentation of power is one of the biggest hindrances from keeping us taking the next step as a region. We have an over abundance of ambition, which is overriding plain common sense. So many wasted resources and so many squandered opportunities. And we wonder why taxes are so high.

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PostMay 05, 2008#54

This issue may get deeper, too. Last Thursday, I was at the State Legislative Meeting in South County regarding the Trash Districts in unincorporated StL County. A Missouri Legislator (won’t say who) posited that unincorporated South County maybe should start establishing more cities, like the City of Affton or the City of Concord, to consolidate more control over County Government actions. Should this grab some feet, we could see another 15+ cities spring up across unincorporated StL County.


Shhhhh. Don't tell them that! If they incorporate, once the City again becomes part of the County then the City can't annex these areas! :twisted:

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PostMay 05, 2008#55

Gone Corporate wrote:


This issue may get deeper, too. Last Thursday, I was at the State Legislative Meeting in South County regarding the Trash Districts in unincorporated StL County. A Missouri Legislator (won’t say who) posited that unincorporated South County maybe should start establishing more cities, like the City of Affton or the City of Concord, to consolidate more control over County Government actions. Should this grab some feet, we could see another 15+ cities spring up across unincorporated StL County.



While I want a merger to take place, I’m scared we’re moving in the opposite direction. The Powers That Be don’t want to risk losing power.


That's a matter of public record, no? Might as well tell us who said it.

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PostMay 05, 2008#56

Gone Corporate - I also took a geopolitics class in undergrad. It was the most interesting class I took in the business school.



On a lighter note, yet still interesting nonetheless, if there was such a political situation in Africa, there would be a coup d'etat and opposing sides would take to arms to overthrow those who have too much power. I'm not saying this is a good solution, but it is interesting to think about.



If the state of a merger is so impossible, what WOULD make it possible? Who controls the Missouri National Guard? Doesn't Missouri law trump anything that happens in the state?



If stl politics are so medieval, why not use medieval tactics to overthrow power...Stl could claim a state of emergency (technically we are in one because the future of the region is not looking good to many) and imagine troops overthrowing the aldermans and muny mayors. It would be stl independence day!

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PostMay 06, 2008#57

^ I also fear for the future of this city. There is so much division and ignorance, that it takes a miracle for anything to get done (unless its totally destroying the urban fabric or electing incompetents to office). Sometimes I wonder how we even managed to have a somewhat successful light rail system. If something progressive doesn't happen soon, St. Louis will not have a bright future and people will start to leave the region like we see in our rustbelt counterparts Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and a slew of smaller cities. I'm praying that the younger generation changes this medieval ways of thinking and learn from their parents mistakes, because if they don't....WELCOME TO THE DARK AGES.

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PostMay 06, 2008#58

i say merge the city and county but keep the school districts as they are. sure ONE giant school district sounds great in THEORY, but look what happened in the city. the exact same thing would happen if every school was under the same umbrella. white flight would occur tenfold and we would wind up where we were before. sorry, but it's a harsh reality. That's why I think it might be a good idea in the city to have 50/50 schools. 50% black and 50% white. It might be a good way to rebuild different schools. Clearly, the majority of people white and black that read this board would NOT send their kids to a city school right now as it stands. But I DO think most on here, I would, would send their kids to a school that was completely balanced. Take Clayton for example. Black students that go to this school score better than anywhere else in the county or city (maybe excluding metro). Obviously, there are other factors, pupil expenditure, etc. But, the most important thing, to rebuild the district, I'm liking my 50/50 concept.

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PostMay 06, 2008#59

goat314 wrote:^ I also fear for the future of this city. There is so much division and ignorance, that it takes a miracle for anything to get done (unless its totally destroying the urban fabric or electing incompetents to office). Sometimes I wonder how we even managed to have a somewhat successful light rail system. If something progressive doesn't happen soon, St. Louis will not have a bright future and people will start to leave the region like we see in our rustbelt counterparts Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and a slew of smaller cities. I'm praying that the younger generation changes this medieval ways of thinking and learn from their parents mistakes, because if they don't....WELCOME TO THE DARK AGES.


it's good to see that there's SOMEONE else in st. louis that can see the obvious. god bless the city. the more news and articles i read, comments online, feedback of comments from tourists, blogs, etc....the more i put together in my head the state of our city.... its not good.



there's a disease that is rotting the city to its core. and has been for decades. there's a disease of ignorance, parochial naivety, lack of understanding of the world beyond the region, isolation, anti-progression/unity, ...pretty much recipes for disaster for any civilization that is infecting st. louis.



St. louis HAS to merge if it wants to be anything in the future. This is something that MUST happen. How can a bunch of mom and pop stores compete with walmart? They can't. Tell me of a society or succesful civilization that has succeeded with this form of government (i compare it to fiefdoms of old scotland) of separated/proprietary entities competing with one another.



I'm not talking about just consolidating services like police force and sewage (which i believe is already consolidated) I'm talking of funding and development. building sidewalks, pedestrian friendly communities, lights to light the highway, bridges...all stuff that a lot of muncipalities struggle over because lack of central funding.



The more people sit around and say "oh i can't happen because there's _____." and this guy won't let it happen etc, the harder it will be to have any change. Because their attitudes of self pity and a lifetime of failures and failed attempts to try at anything are contagious. The ONLY saving grace I can think of now for the future of stl to actually grow vs deplete is the deal to be a transportation hub with China (which every city lover on this forum should be begging on their knees every night that it doesn't fall through).



And this consolidation/merge is not a "quick fix or cure" as people state, it's removing the first tumor of a cancer that has malignantly spread throughout the body.



Jesus lord. Why can only a few see this?

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PostMay 06, 2008#60

an atty in my office explained a few weeks ago that the boundaries are where they are b/c way back in the day (the 20s maybe?) when STL was a bustling urban mecca, they city wanted to dis-associate itself from the "poor farmers" out in the county. he was saying its positively laughable that the city now wants their tax dollars.



not sure how true any of that is- its WAY before my time of course- but i thought it was interesting.



is that true?

PostMay 06, 2008#61

an atty in my office explained a few weeks ago that the boundaries are where they are b/c way back in the day (the 20s maybe?) when STL was a bustling urban mecca, they city wanted to dis-associate itself from the "poor farmers" out in the county. he was saying its positively laughable that the city now wants their tax dollars.



not sure how true any of that is- its WAY before my time of course- but i thought it was interesting.



is that true?

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PostMay 06, 2008#62

^actually it was 1876. And back then the Skinker/McCausland boundary seemed like more than enough room for the city to expand. Of course this was 20 yrs. or so before automobiles appeared on the road and such country outposts as Maplewood and Wellston were no longer a half day's journey away.

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PostMay 06, 2008#63

carrieocity kills wrote:an atty in my office explained a few weeks ago that the boundaries are where they are b/c way back in the day (the 20s maybe?) when STL was a bustling urban mecca, they city wanted to dis-associate itself from the "poor farmers" out in the county. he was saying its positively laughable that the city now wants their tax dollars.



not sure how true any of that is- its WAY before my time of course- but i thought it was interesting.



is that true?


Yes it was in 1876 like southsidepride said and long before a huge number of rural southern blacks moved to industrial powerhouses like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and our beloved St. Louis. We must not be ignorant and assume that the St. Louis decline is merely a result of boundary lines, cars, and urban renewal. Most of the time it was due to pure racism and classism and not just from Whites but Blacks too, as many Blacks also left the city for "greener pastures" and Atlanta and still are. All the cities I mentioned before loss significant amounts of population, even the praised metropolis of Chicago (which is considerably smaller than it was 50 years ago). The only difference between a city like St. Louis and Chicago despite 2 million residents and a metropolitan area 3x are size, is that Chicago never stopped seeing itself as a world class city after WWII, its socially progressive (despite dealing with the same racial tensions, which are not unique to St. Louis...Los Angeles, New York, and Chicago can be just as intolerant despite being more diverse), people don't let divisions get in the way of making money though, and people genuinely love and appreciate their city.

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PostMay 06, 2008#64

I think that the people of the city and county should vote on it and I think that all the facts should be given all the positives and the negatives. What happend over a hundred years ago should not stand in the way of St.Louis becoming an even greater city. Lets face it no one says that they are going to go to Pine Lawn or Kirkwood they say that they are going to ST.Louis. Think of all the Federal funding this region would get if there is a merger.More funding for rapid trans and roadways ect.And I know that our neighbors ST.Charles wont bite on it but I believe that Franklin and Jefferson counties should be included in the merger and we can begin to exspand southward the city will grow and the county will grow and the area as a whole will grow.

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PostMay 07, 2008#65

I'm almost in favor of the merger between St. Louis City and County just to FIGHT off St. Charles. St. Charles County and farther west counties will continue the drain sucking sound of power farther west I'm afraid, but huge increases in gas prices might slow this down.

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PostOct 08, 2008#66


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PostOct 08, 2008#67

As of the census of 2000, there were 81 people...







...The racial makeup of the village was 93.83% White, 1.23% African American...





So in 2000 somebody in Country Life Acres, MO was literally "the black guy"

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