Juice13610 wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote:It's widely understood that gay = lame.
MattnSTL didn't catch it because TCS is always right about everything.
There, fixed it for you moron*.
*sarcastic
There, fixed it for you moron*.
*sarcastic
DeBaliviere wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I'm talking about the hoosiers who rev their gay little rice rockets at 2 in the am. Clientele of Lucky's Hoosierama.
How about a different adjective, please?
And how about we also stop calling people "hoosiers"? That's pretty insulting too.
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Framer wrote:DeBaliviere wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I'm talking about the hoosiers who rev their gay little rice rockets at 2 in the am. Clientele of Lucky's Hoosierama.
How about a different adjective, please?
And how about we also stop calling people "hoosiers"? That's pretty insulting too.
If they are hoosiers, what else are we supposed to call them? Trailer trash?
I think what many are suggesting is that there are ways to describe people and things that aren't so insulting. If you thought about it for a bit, I bet you could come up with matter-of-fact descriptions free from invective. I know you're generally good-hearted and have never heard you say such things in person, so why write them here?
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innov8ion wrote:I think what many are suggesting is that there are ways to describe people and things that aren't so insulting. If you thought about it for a bit, I bet you could come up with matter-of-fact descriptions free from invective. I know you're generally good-hearted and have never heard you say such things in person, so why write them here?
OK. What term should I use to describe someone who races the engine on their rice rocket at 2:00 am on Washington? Or who does it at any time of the day? Clearly not someone who cares about others. Clearly not someone who is a quality individual.
For me, "hoosier" works nicely, but I'm open for suggestions.
(You've never heard me use the term in person, because you are not a hoosier!)
I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
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SShoe wrote:I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
I agree with this. As more and more people move in, there will be less and less tolerance for any disturbances. And less and less tolerance for the "homeless". These are good things.
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I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.SShoe wrote:I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
SShoe wrote:I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
I think this is why the nightclubs have moved further west to Locust (for example Nectar, Pepper Lounge) or the area by SLU (Lush, Dante's etc). Residental and dance/nightclubs just don't mix.
I think the point was not noise, but crime attraction through nightclubs.Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.SShoe wrote:I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
I am a heavy metal fan, and go to Pop's(and yes I know you cannot compare a concert venue to a nightclub under normal conditions, but there are similarities here). There are frequent altercations that break out there too. Singling Hip hop nightclubs as the "source" of issues is incorrect. I think any nightclub that caters to hormonal 17-23 year olds is going to have issues.
I think you said it best yourself. How about inconsiderate? Or perhaps a punk? I'm not so sure there's anything wrong with the word hoosier, however, as it was validly defined as unrefined or uncouth and actually dates back to the 1800's.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:OK. What term should I use to describe someone who races the engine on their rice rocket at 2:00 am on Washington? Or who does it at any time of the day? Clearly not someone who cares about others. Clearly not someone who is a quality individual.
For me, "hoosier" works nicely, but I'm open for suggestions.
(You've never heard me use the term in person, because you are not a hoosier!)
By the way, I like your new Jeep. Glad the lift was taken care of.
I think this is a very interesting question and one that may deserve more attention in the future. People have brought up a lot of good points for discussion.STLDTFAN wrote:I think the point was not noise, but crime attraction through nightclubs.Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.SShoe wrote:I live in the Bee Hat lofts and also heard the shots. It sounded like four or five "pops" and a car went screaching up the street.
Honestly, I think it's beginning to approach a time when night clubs of all sorts (do not mistake with restaurants and bars) should probably be disallowed in residential areas similar to Washington Ave. This is certainly not the first time an incident like this has happened and it certainly won't be the last. Nightclubs are a nuisance and are not generally considered a good mix in residential neighborhoods. That's why you tend to see them in areas that are primarily commercial and/or vacant industrial. The trend away from night clubs on Washington Ave. has already been going on for the past ten years, but as more and more residents move in, these uses have less and less complimentary.
Most of the property owners downtown are in agreement that night clubs similar to Lucky's are not good for the area. However, we need more than that. The City should seriously consider not allowing any future clubs along Washington, Locust, Olive, etc. Nightclubs have a place, just not in an area that is supposed to be an attractive, safe, hip, unique, residential neighborhood.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
I am a heavy metal fan, and go to Pop's(and yes I know you cannot compare a concert venue to a nightclub under normal conditions, but there are similarities here). There are frequent altercations that break out there too. Singling Hip hop nightclubs as the "source" of issues is incorrect. I think any nightclub that caters to hormonal 17-23 year olds is going to have issues.
In the case of Lucky's, data showed a high correlation between an increase of crime held when Hip Hop nights occurred. Can such a connection be made with other clubs in the loft district such as Kyo, Dolce, 1014, etc? I'm not sure if that is the case.
How have issues like this been addressed in neighborhoods similar to the loft district? I hope this issue is dealt with in a balanced manner, and that we deal with issues on a case-by-case basis unless signs point to systemic and major problems.
Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
You can't just single out "hip hop" nights. Night clubs in general bring a different atmosphere to the area, and I honestly don't think that many people were drawn to the area by its nightclubs. Places like Lucas Park, Dubliner, Kitchen K, Copia, Flannery's Side Bar, etc. all get along fine without too many problems. I live above the Dubliner and yes, it can get noisy at night. But nightclubs tend to bring a different atmosphere that causes bigger problems than noise and that's why many of the DT developers have gotten rid of these types of establishments.
My point is that there is a fine line to cross between having a residential neighborhood and a night club district. So our leaders need to ask themselves, "what kind of area do we want this to be?"
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Ah, I see what you are saying, keep the lounges and move the nightclubs. I can agree to that. I'd be a small price to pay to get rid of the rif raff. And I'm singling out hip hop clubs because of all the types of nightclubs, they seem to be the ones that cause the shootings (not just the normal fist fights).SShoe wrote:Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
You can't just single out "hip hop" nights. Night clubs in general bring a different atmosphere to the area, and I honestly don't think that many people were drawn to the area by its nightclubs. Places like Lucas Park, Dubliner, Kitchen K, Copia, Flannery's Side Bar, etc. all get along fine without too many problems. I live above the Dubliner and yes, it can get noisy at night. But nightclubs tend to bring a different atmosphere that causes bigger problems than noise and that's why many of the DT developers have gotten rid of these types of establishments.
My point is that there is a fine line to cross between having a residential neighborhood and a night club district. So our leaders need to ask themselves, "what kind of area do we want this to be?"
Urban Elitist wrote:Ah, I see what you are saying, keep the lounges and move the nightclubs. I can agree to that. I'd be a small price to pay to get rid of the rif raff. And I'm singling out hip hop clubs because of all the types of nightclubs, they seem to be the ones that cause the shootings (not just the normal fist fights).SShoe wrote:Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
You can't just single out "hip hop" nights. Night clubs in general bring a different atmosphere to the area, and I honestly don't think that many people were drawn to the area by its nightclubs. Places like Lucas Park, Dubliner, Kitchen K, Copia, Flannery's Side Bar, etc. all get along fine without too many problems. I live above the Dubliner and yes, it can get noisy at night. But nightclubs tend to bring a different atmosphere that causes bigger problems than noise and that's why many of the DT developers have gotten rid of these types of establishments.
My point is that there is a fine line to cross between having a residential neighborhood and a night club district. So our leaders need to ask themselves, "what kind of area do we want this to be?"
I don't disagree with you in regards to your comment on the "hip hop" clubs, but from standpoint of city policy, you can't target just hip hop clubs. I would imagine that some would take offense to that. Plus it's pretty arbitrary. But, if you restrict all "night clubs in this area" and cite excess noise, there really is no argument. One thing I learned in my Land Use Law class is that in a mixed-use district such as Washington Ave. ,the dominant use takes precedence. It's near the point where residential is the dominant use and if the residents don't like the nightclubs, then they won't exist and nobody can say much legally. However, one must differentiate between places like Lucas Park and places like Lucky's.
Urban Elitist wrote:Ah, I see what you are saying, keep the lounges and move the nightclubs. I can agree to that. I'd be a small price to pay to get rid of the rif raff. And I'm singling out hip hop clubs because of all the types of nightclubs, they seem to be the ones that cause the shootings (not just the normal fist fights).SShoe wrote:Urban Elitist wrote:I think you are going way overboard. I purchased DT so that I could be in close vicinity to all sorts of attractions. If you don't want as much noise, purchase a street or two off of Wash Ave and enjoy the ammenities with less of the noise. I think it's very unreasonable to expect to move into a neighborhood, and change it's entire dynamic that sold it to many people in the first place.
That said, I am totally 100% for banning any and all hip hop nights DT.
You can't just single out "hip hop" nights. Night clubs in general bring a different atmosphere to the area, and I honestly don't think that many people were drawn to the area by its nightclubs. Places like Lucas Park, Dubliner, Kitchen K, Copia, Flannery's Side Bar, etc. all get along fine without too many problems. I live above the Dubliner and yes, it can get noisy at night. But nightclubs tend to bring a different atmosphere that causes bigger problems than noise and that's why many of the DT developers have gotten rid of these types of establishments.
My point is that there is a fine line to cross between having a residential neighborhood and a night club district. So our leaders need to ask themselves, "what kind of area do we want this to be?"
That's what I said earlier. Encourage the nightclubs move to the area by SLU so they don't interfere with residental life. Leave east of Jefferson for "regular" bars, restaurants and residential. Make the area between Jefferson and Grand the nightclub and live music area.
The old Castle is sitting empty. Lucky's would work great there.
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I saw this coming years ago... since Wash Ave. is becoming a vertical Webster Groves (in mentality), nightclubs are no longer "welcome". It is unfortunate, because true DT living, in areas such as Lodo in Denver, River North/Gold Coast in Chicago, First Avenue in Minneapolis and Milwaukee Street in Milwaukee incorporate clubs with restaurants and lounges to facilitate a true high-energy mix. The mix keeps street level energy high (and sometimes loud) from happy hour until bar closing time. I always felt St. Louis was not ready for this type of environment. The first mistake was referring to Wash. Ave as a "neighborhood". It's part of downtown, not a neighborhood! If you want a real neighborhood, their are plenty of options... complete with backyards for dogs and no homeless people nearby. But, the fact of the matter is that many residents moving into the area have no experience living in a true urban high-energy environment. So the end result is a sanitized, watered-down version of what the real thing is...
I like the idea of nightclubs on Chouteau, between Jefferson and Grand. In fact I know of at least two club operators who have landbanked properties looking to open in 2010 after the 40/64 "money lifeline" re-opens. Athough Olive is way ahead of the curve now (between Jefferson and Grand), I can't help but think SLU will eventually command most of the area in the near future and boot out the clubs... At least Chouteau seems to be far enough removed from residential concerns to make longevity for the operators (who wish to purchase their buildings) a possibility.
Now, a quick comment on the "hip-hop" thing... Clubs all over the world play predominantly hip-hop. Pepper Lounge, Kyo, Nectar, Dolce... even Jimmy Edmonds new place are heavily hip-hop formatted. The problem is not the music. The problem is that some clubs basically "rent out" their establishment to promoters who draw a more specific crowd. Typically this happens on nights where decent revenue from a mainsteam crowd is not possible (such as Sunday at Lucky's). Believe me, operators would rather not deal with the problems that come with such arrangements, but need the cash to stay alive. Usually clubs that go promoter-driven or teen are on their last legs... so it seems to me Lucky's is not long for this world.
I like the idea of nightclubs on Chouteau, between Jefferson and Grand. In fact I know of at least two club operators who have landbanked properties looking to open in 2010 after the 40/64 "money lifeline" re-opens. Athough Olive is way ahead of the curve now (between Jefferson and Grand), I can't help but think SLU will eventually command most of the area in the near future and boot out the clubs... At least Chouteau seems to be far enough removed from residential concerns to make longevity for the operators (who wish to purchase their buildings) a possibility.
Now, a quick comment on the "hip-hop" thing... Clubs all over the world play predominantly hip-hop. Pepper Lounge, Kyo, Nectar, Dolce... even Jimmy Edmonds new place are heavily hip-hop formatted. The problem is not the music. The problem is that some clubs basically "rent out" their establishment to promoters who draw a more specific crowd. Typically this happens on nights where decent revenue from a mainsteam crowd is not possible (such as Sunday at Lucky's). Believe me, operators would rather not deal with the problems that come with such arrangements, but need the cash to stay alive. Usually clubs that go promoter-driven or teen are on their last legs... so it seems to me Lucky's is not long for this world.
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I would say the downtown area is a legit neighborhood but I don't think the neighborhood term should be exclusive to Washington Avenue. There are residences scattered all over downtown like the Cupples.
I hope that the residents will continue to put effort into resolving problems in the manner that this issue was resolved rather than eyeing a means to eliminate these establishments.
I hope that the residents will continue to put effort into resolving problems in the manner that this issue was resolved rather than eyeing a means to eliminate these establishments.
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With Washington's newfound "neighborhoodiness," I'd like to see North Broadway emerge as the spot for nightclubs, artists' lofts, etc.
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Marc, I dont think anyone has a problem with clubs or Lounges being located on Wash Ave. Its more the crowd that one clubs draws on Sun night. I hope Lucky;s stays open but just fixes the Sun night issue.
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DeBaliviere wrote:With Washington's newfound "neighborhoodiness," I'd like to see North Broadway emerge as the spot for nightclubs, artists' lofts, etc.
We took a drive in that direction a couple of weekends ago after checking out the progress at Lumiere Place. There are countless buildings with so much potential. I really think this has to be the "next" area for nightlife and artists' lofts.
^It seems as though most of those buildings are being used, or well, where are we talking about exactly?
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marc buxton wrote:I saw this coming years ago... since Wash Ave. is becoming a vertical Webster Groves (in mentality), nightclubs are no longer "welcome". It is unfortunate, because true DT living, in areas such as Lodo in Denver, River North/Gold Coast in Chicago, First Avenue in Minneapolis and Milwaukee Street in Milwaukee incorporate clubs with restaurants and lounges to facilitate a true high-energy mix. The mix keeps street level energy high (and sometimes loud) from happy hour until bar closing time. I always felt St. Louis was not ready for this type of environment. The first mistake was referring to Wash. Ave as a "neighborhood". It's part of downtown, not a neighborhood! If you want a real neighborhood, their are plenty of options... complete with backyards for dogs and no homeless people nearby. But, the fact of the matter is that many residents moving into the area have no experience living in a true urban high-energy environment. So the end result is a sanitized, watered-down version of what the real thing is...
Sorry, but hoosiers racing motorcycles, honking horns, standing in the middle of the sidewalk and yelling "Whooooo" at the top of theiur lungs, etc, don't belong anywhere.
People have this bizarre notion that because one chooses to live in a downtown area, all bets are off. It's the wild west. No matter what happens, you have to live with it. It comes with the territory.
Wrong.
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I agree with you and am well aware that the problem is not hip hop music itself. Hip Hop is my favorite type of music. But the all hip hop clubs/nights(not like top 40 mainstream places such as Pepper, 15, et all) for some reason attract the thug crowd like a magnet. It's that crowd that causes all of the trouble in this neighborhood they do not live in. Really most problems can be avoided by simply having and enforcing a dress code that keeps the thugs out so normal people can enjoy good music without weapons fire.marc buxton wrote:Now, a quick comment on the "hip-hop" thing... Clubs all over the world play predominantly hip-hop. Pepper Lounge, Kyo, Nectar, Dolce... even Jimmy Edmonds new place are heavily hip-hop formatted. The problem is not the music. The problem is that some clubs basically "rent out" their establishment to promoters who draw a more specific crowd. Typically this happens on nights where decent revenue from a mainsteam crowd is not possible (such as Sunday at Lucky's). Believe me, operators would rather not deal with the problems that come with such arrangements, but need the cash to stay alive. Usually clubs that go promoter-driven or teen are on their last legs... so it seems to me Lucky's is not long for this world.