St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

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First unread post4878 posts
soulardx wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:42 am
Continuing to evaluate STL getting more Euro service, I found this interesting.

Preliminary CY 2017 Commercial Service Enplanements Data

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... ements.pdf

STL is the 32nd busiest airport, which doesn't seem so good, but when compared to similar cities, it's huge.

STL has about the same traffic as Nashville and Austin. (Imagine those cities will pass STL soon)
STL is
  • 29% busier than KC
      60% busier than Cleveland
        60% busier than San Antonio
          66% busier than Indy (which is shocking...how did they get a better Euro flight than us)
            66% busier than Pittsburgh
              90% busier than Cinci (not sure how much longer Cinci can keep its Euro flights)
                96% busier than Columbus
              Indy is paying a bunch of money for its flight, over double what most pay (5.5 mil for 2 years). That is how they got it.
              Nashville is paying between 1.5 and 2 mil for BA.

              Great comparison though. I would be curious to see how O&D compares.
              I was surprised that STL is busier than PIT. As far as I know they have regular WOW service as well as seasonal service to Paris (Delta) and Frankfurt (Condor).
              kipfilet wrote:
              Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:41 pm
              I was surprised that STL is busier than PIT. As far as I know they have regular WOW service as well as seasonal service to Paris (Delta) and Frankfurt (Condor).
              They are in 757 range to Paris. I think they ran it on that up until the last year or two. That helped them get service since we weren't in range for a 757. They also have pretty horrible west coast service. STL focused on that first, PIT focused on Europe first.

              PIT doesn't have flights to Portland, Seattle (although this is starting in September), San Deigo is only 2x a week seasonal on Frontier. In winter they only have 1 flight a day to the Bay area. LAX service will only be on Spirit Jan and Feb next year. I think I looked at one point recently and they had more destinations in Europe than they had west of Las Vegas (even Vegas is only 2 a day).
              Did my Load Factor Spreadsheet for April.

              Sacramento (94.5%) and San Jose (91.5%) started off strong.
              West Palm Beach had a short season but ran at 89.5% for the total March/April (Sat only).
              Cancun on Southwest ran at 90% for January.
              Portland is going to end up being around 90% full for Alaska for the 3 months they ran it this year. Still have to think it could possibly come back at some point. Also at 90% for Southwest.

              Allegiant over at BLV all looks pretty good. JAX was the only one under 80% and that is probably why it is going back to seasonal.

              https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
              ^ A follow-up to this grant from last August.
              Looks like Volaris is picking up some charters next year. That will be fun to see their planes here.

              It will be interesting to see if they sell tickets separate like Frontier does to Cancun.

              http://www.applevacations.com/flight-sc ... -st_louis/
              ^Oh, nice catch!
              June's airport commission meeting minutes are up.

              Nothing super exciting.
              2 notes.

              1.SWA Checkpoint
              The Airport is still in negotiations with Southwest Airlines to relocate the outside checkpoint to the
              west end of the T2 drive, which should help alleviate some of the traffic issues. Additionally, a
              traffic study is currently being conducted to specifically address the traffic issues at T2.

              I am pretty sure Checkpoint means the curbside check in. I am not convinced it will make a difference.

              2. To counteract the public's perceived perception that the Airport has very few flights, Commissioner
              Teitelbaum suggested the installation of a visual display, with lights, showing the destination of
              every flight arriving at or depaiting from the Airport. She also suggested that the gate assignment
              boards be placed in the concourses closer to the entrance from the security checkpoints.

              https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... inutes.pdf
              jshank83 wrote:
              Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:08 pm
              June's airport commission meeting minutes are up.

              Nothing super exciting.
              2 notes.

              1.SWA Checkpoint
              The Airport is still in negotiations with Southwest Airlines to relocate the outside checkpoint to the
              west end of the T2 drive, which should help alleviate some of the traffic issues. Additionally, a
              traffic study is currently being conducted to specifically address the traffic issues at T2.

              I am pretty sure Checkpoint means the curbside check in. I am not convinced it will make a difference.

              2. To counteract the public's perceived perception that the Airport has very few flights, Commissioner
              Teitelbaum suggested the installation of a visual display, with lights, showing the destination of
              every flight arriving at or depaiting from the Airport. She also suggested that the gate assignment
              boards be placed in the concourses closer to the entrance from the security checkpoints.

              https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... inutes.pdf
              Re: #2, I understand what they're trying to do there, but I'm pretty sure that the perception comes from passengers arriving and departing in Terminal 1 outside of peak times. Depending on when you land the whole terminal can look nearly abandoned, even today. That tends to happen when you have more than half of the airport's traffic running through 15 or so gates in a single concourse in T2, and the rest spread out over 45 gates and two concourses in T1.

              The real solution, since you can't practically spread SWA out between T1 and T2 is either to divert other international traffic to concource C (which will require a second international gate) or just plain drive more traffic into T1 by attracting non-Southwest domestic flights. I suppose you could move Southwest into T1, and then try to attract more international traffic into T2.
              But I highly doubt that'd be desirable to SWA, and even then you'd still need a customs area for SW's Cancun and Punta Cana flights.

              A sign that says 'hey there really is traffic you guys, you just can't see it!' isn't going to replace bodies in the aisles and shops. The latter is what's shaping perception today.

              -RBB
              The other solution is to re-open the C->D/E hallway - fixes all kinds of issues- parking, shuttling, pickup congestion. Even if they didn't rehab the moving walkways I would park in T1 and walk to the E gates. The furthest old D gate in use has to be as close to C as it is to E now.
              tztag wrote:
              Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:56 pm
              The other solution is to re-open the C->D/E hallway - fixes all kinds of issues- parking, shuttling, pickup congestion. Even if they didn't rehab the moving walkways I would park in T1 and walk to the E gates. The furthest old D gate in use has to be as close to C as it is to E now.
              I have to disagree, the fundamental issue is Lambert as it is currently configured for the old TWA hub has way too many gates & concourse square footage with a huge swath of tarmac to maintain then demand warrants for the foreseeable future, decades. In addition, most of its dead space whether it be the end of C, or the unused B gates or underutilized D that can't be repurposed for more short term parking, a consolidated car rental center or even hotel rooms.

              I still think a long term is that A, B and C would be replaced with linear concourse w single point security where B stands now for T-1 (Concourse C offers plenty of space to shuffle gates around for build out), configure west end of T-1/E for expanded Southwest presence & international flights, and finally demo D for a new short term parking garage/consolidated car rental/hotel between T-1 & T-2. The airport would have three short term garages to collect revenues and amenities that are norm for airports. For good measure build a new single underground metrolink airport station at the new short term parking/consolidated rental center between T-1 & T-2. Metrolink Re-alignment to it doesn't dead end at T-1 and putting underground to have the ability to extend it west to Bridgeton/Earth City (Casino) in the future. You can add some pedestrian walkways to whisk people to and from T-1 & T-2

              In the meantime, I think RBB has it right, Non southwest airlines consolidated into T-1 (including a means to utilize C for both international arrivals and departures) and keep T-2 strictly Southwest. Concourse D in the near term gives the ability to make changes to the west side T-1/E gates such as added baggage area, more curbside access, etc..
              PIT just got service on BA to London...... soooooo probably not great for us.
              ^ What in God's name is going here?

              Why can't we attract this route?

              I'm confused.
              whitherSTL wrote:
              Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:06 am
              ^ What in God's name is going here?

              Why can't we attract this route?

              I'm confused.
              I am pretty shocked. I thought there was no way BA would go in there with Delta, Conder, and WOW already flying out of there. I'll wait to see how much money they are throwing at it though. Money trumps everything.
              Another strong month.

              Traffic up 7.6% in June
              5.6% up on the year.

              https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf
              I could scream—Lambert's got the cheese touch.
              Now, before we panic about this PIT announcement,

              I remain certain that STL will get another TATL announcement this August. I am interested to see how much money PIT threw at BA. If it is anything more than $5 Million, then we are definitely out. I do find this somewhat questionable though on the sie of PIT, given that they have absolutely atrocious domestic service. Then again, they do have to compete with PHL, NYC, DC, BOS, DTW all in their backyard...sortof. I'm sure Rhonda will get a grilling today from KMOX and others.
              ^ 1.5 million a year for incentives for 2 years. Coming from the State instead of the airport authority (who subsidized their other TATL flights)
              @Dredger

              >I still think a long term is that A, B and C would be replaced with linear concourse w single point security where B stands now for T-1 (Concourse C offers plenty of space to shuffle gates around for build out), configure west end of T-1/E for expanded Southwest presence & international flights,

              Good long-term vision, but very expensive.

              Short term- move International to C, reopen the hallway, let the parking and security loads redistribute.
              If anyone is interested in the reactions to the PIT announcement, check out the Columbus peeps. Obviously, a more dire situation for them, as they have been passed for a 7th time on TATL service.
              Over the last few years, after each BA announcement, I have contacted STL to get their opinion or other info.

              I've always gotten a substantial answer, saying that "STL is always pursuing TATL, and that it is a 'priority for the airport' to gain service to London and other major European markets, etc etc etc."

              Today I received

              "STL is frequently meeting with airlines to discuss future service."

              That's it, just a one sentence answer. This struck me as interesting, given my past correspondence with STL. Also of note, in past years, KMOX and KMOV have ran stories soon after these announcements with quotes from Lambert officials explaining why they were passed up, etc. None of that today and it's eerily silent at STL.

              This has me thinking of two scenarios. A) Today's announcement was a huge defeat for STL route development and they need to rethink their strategy, or B) STL has news they would like to share, but cannot announce it yet. I'm thinking it may be B, given the lack of information coming out of STL today, in which they typically would be doing minor damage control.

              If anyone else has thoughts on this, I'd be interested to hear.
              Also there is two other things that has to be noted going on that leads to something.

              Upcoming renovations and reopening of more C gates including one widebody capable one.
              Proposal bids for doing work on international arrivals and expansion of facilities on that end.

              They would not be doing this without something (possibly somethings) coming.

              Also note PIT has some bad holes in domestic routes particularly out west that seems more glaring.
              I think the answer is A. If STL usually mentions London, I can only imagine them not mentioning London anymore is a sign of it not happening anymore.

              I had heard that a different full service TATL carrier is very interested in flying to Missouri. It sounded like , a few months ago, the decision was between, KC, STL, or just neither. Recently, I had heard that they were more strongly leaning towards KC. Maybe they will end up at STL and the answer is “b”?

              FIS expansion without actual route developments on the table is possible. KC started expanding their FIS/Customs before Icelandair , and someone I won’t name, were even at the table. STL could be investing in FIS without someone at the table with the goal of using the new FIS area as bait for a TATL carrier.





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