St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

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jshank83 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:17 pm
DogtownBnR wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:17 pm
American officially closing its pilot base in STL. 153 pilots affected. American puts another dagger into the remnants of TWA. :evil:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ame ... se-closure
When I saw the closing announced last October I was surprised they still had a pilot base here. But I guess it made sense with the MD flying they still did. Now that they are getting rid of the planes, I guess the base goes also.
All the S80s are going to be in DFW for their final run. The STL pilot base was supposed to close in bankruptcy (2011-13) and with the volume of mainline flights out of STL there’s little reason to keep in-flight base open but F/As are trained on multiple equipment types at AA so as the S80s trips go off their bid sheets the F/As are already certified on their replacement aircraft.

In fact the former APFA interim president is a SLT (not a typo) based nAAtive who is very sympathetic to former TWA and recently made a deal with the company to potentially give priority return over more senior nAAtives or LUS (who until joint operations can’t be based out of SLT as it is a LAA base):

https://apfa.org/hotlines-2018/5385-6-2 ... attendants

[APFA just swore in new leadership 7/1]

Objectively there is nothing in the APFA CBA preventing this base from closing so long as the bumping language is followed. Hopefully the former TWA employees can get back to SLT and enjoy the rest of their careers working for a stable, well capitalized, and consistently profitable carrier. Currently just over half the SLT base is former TWA, rest nAAtive.
And "SLT 'not a typo'"means what?

Or to quote the great 1964 film 'A Hard Day's Night': 'Stop hiding behind your bourgeois clichės...'
^Shadrach,

SLT is the official name of the pilot base. Not familiar enough with the history to tell you why for sure, but the L could be Lambert, since that's been the name of the field an awfully long time. I believe it's an AA name, and was probably TWA before that. Because it's so close to STL . . . it looks like a typo. But it's not. JAL likes to unload the airline lingo. Probably can't help it. Professional hazard, I suspect. It takes a little effort to step out of your field and talk in laymen's terms to outsiders. Lord knows I have a hard time stopping myself from throwing out musical and theatrical terminology, even though I've taught music and have, in fact, practiced the technique of initiating the uninitiated. There are just times you forget to turn off the autopilot until something beeps at you.

I think you just beeped. Shall we discuss kerning and negative space? ;-)

. . . If i had to guess, JAL has been corrected on SLT once or twice. Even though it wasn't wrong. So . . . sensitive. It happens. And defending against the inevitable in advance.

Which means I suppose I should ask JAL why SLT is SLT and not STL. Might get a good answer that way.
The “SLT” designator was for the AA base at STL which came about after the acquisition closed to support the operation of mainline nAAtive aircraft. Basically they gradually drained down the “STL” base which was former the TWA base, as former TWA crews became qualified on AA aircraft.

If anyone is interested this is probably way more detail than you care for (and plenty of TWA editorials):

http://www.airlineforums.com/threads/slt-or-stl.29040/
Flew out on SW last week and took a couple of photos. I didn’t know 3 Kings was open towards the D gates. ImageImage


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^I got food from the to go counter there a couple weeks ago. Took over 20 minutes. One lady couldn't wait any longer and was going to leave but the manager at least told her he would bring her something that they could make faster. Others around me weren't quite as long but it would be nice to see them get that down closer to 10-12 minutes. I feel like that is more the amount of time I wait at other airports.

The food was really good when I got it though. Will be my place of choice if I have the time to wait.
JAL007 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:28 am
The “SLT” designator was for the AA base at STL which came about after the acquisition closed to support the operation of mainline nAAtive aircraft. Basically they gradually drained down the “STL” base which was former the TWA base, as former TWA crews became qualified on AA aircraft.
Interesting! Thank you. :)
Cool to see this full-page promotion of STL in Iceland.

In other news, with the recent announcement of JetBlue taking 60 CSeries... erm "A220-300" planes between 2020-2025, I wonder how that bodes for midwestern airports like IND and STL getting B6 service to Boston and/or JFK?
Trololzilla wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:37 pm
Cool to see this full-page promotion of STL in Iceland.

In other news, with the recent announcement of JetBlue taking 60 CSeries... erm "A220-300" planes between 2020-2025, I wonder how that bodes for midwestern airports like IND and STL getting B6 service to Boston and/or JFK?
IND maybe, STL no. JetBlue only flies to places that are A) "forward thinking" (Northeast, California, ect) B) Vacation spots (Florida and San Juan Hubs) C) Opportunistic adds after dehubs (CLE-lets hope not us) and D) recently they have been adding trendy or "it" cities (Nashville) along with token service to the megacities
Maybe IND is trendy enough that they will add it. Seriously though, if they wanted to add rust bet cities they could have long ago done it.
stl07 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:37 pm
Cool to see this full-page promotion of STL in Iceland.

In other news, with the recent announcement of JetBlue taking 60 CSeries... erm "A220-300" planes between 2020-2025, I wonder how that bodes for midwestern airports like IND and STL getting B6 service to Boston and/or JFK?
IND maybe, STL no. JetBlue only flies to places that are A) "forward thinking" (Northeast, California, ect) B) Vacation spots (Florida and San Juan Hubs) C) Opportunistic adds after dehubs (CLE-lets hope not us) and D) recently they have been adding trendy or "it" cities (Nashville) along with token service to the megacities
Maybe IND is trendy enough that they will add it. Seriously though, if they wanted to add rust bet cities they could have long ago done it.
I have been told that JetBlue does not plan on serving STL for the next 5+ years.


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Trololzilla wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:37 pm
Cool to see this full-page promotion of STL in Iceland.

In other news, with the recent announcement of JetBlue taking 60 CSeries... erm "A220-300" planes between 2020-2025, I wonder how that bodes for midwestern airports like IND and STL getting B6 service to Boston and/or JFK?
Good to see those incentives getting some use. Looks good.

Jetblue mentioned "The aircraft also opens the door to new markets and routes that would have been unprofitable with JetBlue’s existing fleet."

So I would think it improves our chances. I still am under the impression the airport isn't remodeling gates and opening more of C for no reason. More than Sun Country is coming. I would argue they are doing even more than they would need to to add an Intl carrier also, so someone else is coming also. But maybe they are just being proactive.
Cool ad, aside from the photoshopping that makes the city look like it is in a marsh or constantly flooded lol
ummm... JetBlue doesn't start service to airports because their town is sexy or trending. JetBlue has one of the smallest fleets in the country (just above 200 planes) and hasn't been a "trending" airline in quite awhile IMO. They really are not much threat to Southwest. Their route map has been very slow to gain many new airports and they work off of a pretty strict hub network feeding the east coast which has limited their growth IMO. Their Focus City on the west coast is Long Beach, CA with limited air service. They ARE, however, trending up in airfare recently and faster

Their new planes will help them create a "JetBlue Express" if you will serving smaller markets (think Rochester).

In addition, JetBlues founder is starting a new lost cost carrier, MOXY Air, in the next few years.

https://www.smartertravel.com/2018/06/1 ... s-airline/
matguy70 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:24 pm
ummm... JetBlue doesn't start service to airports because their town is sexy or trending. JetBlue has one of the smallest fleets in the country (just above 200 planes) and hasn't been a "trending" airline in quite awhile IMO. They really are not much threat to Southwest. Their route map has been very slow to gain many new airports and they work off of a pretty strict hub network feeding the east coast which has limited their growth IMO. Their Focus City on the west coast is Long Beach, CA with limited air service. They ARE, however, trending up in airfare recently and faster

Their new planes will help them create a "JetBlue Express" if you will serving smaller markets (think Rochester).

In addition, JetBlues founder is starting a new lost cost carrier, MOXY Air, in the next few years.

https://www.smartertravel.com/2018/06/1 ... s-airline/
It's not their fleet size, WW has like 19 planes and they had the entire world to choose from, yet somehow they chose STL. Jetblue has 200 and only the US to choose from and has been around a lot longer. If there was a will, they would. Look at their route map, its coastal elitism at its finest. I get it that their hubs are on the coasts for operational benefits, but every destination (not hub) is either on the coast, or is either a large city, opportunistic add, or a trendy city. No other airline has that kind of route map. If they are on Buffalo to Long beach, they can definitely afford to do STL to BOS. Even Alaska, who calls themselves the airline of the West coast, is big in the heartland.

Hopefully, I end up being wrong :D and it is what you say and they end up here
stl07 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 pm
matguy70 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:24 pm
ummm... JetBlue doesn't start service to airports because their town is sexy or trending. JetBlue has one of the smallest fleets in the country (just above 200 planes) and hasn't been a "trending" airline in quite awhile IMO. They really are not much threat to Southwest. Their route map has been very slow to gain many new airports and they work off of a pretty strict hub network feeding the east coast which has limited their growth IMO. Their Focus City on the west coast is Long Beach, CA with limited air service. They ARE, however, trending up in airfare recently and faster

Their new planes will help them create a "JetBlue Express" if you will serving smaller markets (think Rochester).

In addition, JetBlues founder is starting a new lost cost carrier, MOXY Air, in the next few years.

https://www.smartertravel.com/2018/06/1 ... s-airline/
It's not their fleet size, WW has like 19 planes and they had the entire world to choose from, yet somehow they chose STL. Jetblue has 200 and only the US to choose from and has been around a lot longer. If there was a will, they would. Look at their route map, its coastal elitism at its finest. I get it that their hubs are on the coasts for operational benefits, but every destination (not hub) is either on the coast, or is either a large city, opportunistic add, or a trendy city. No other airline has that kind of route map. If they are on Buffalo to Long beach, they can definitely afford to do STL to BOS. Even Alaska, who calls themselves the airline of the West coast, is big in the heartland.

Hopefully, I end up being wrong :D and it is what you say and they end up here
JetBlue has flown internationally since circa 2004 - first destination was Santiago, D.R. and currently serves 30+ international destinations in the Caribbean, Central, and South America.

As for B6 coming to STL I would selfishly like to think it’s a matter of time. But then again from their perspective they believe they can earn a better return sending the aircraft to other markets. Keep in mind most of the STL-Florida traffic centered around TPA/RSW corridor as opposed to MIA/FLL/PBI.

B6 would have a very hard time competing with the schedule utility UA (EWR) or AA/DL (LGA) are able to provide in the NY market. Plus, most domestic travelers going to cities within the perimeter vastly prefer LGA.

BOS is the only possibility, but IMO it’s also marginal at best when you consider WNs strong presence and ability to serve local market and through passengers. WN is a big force at STL, but has never really caught on out of Logan. People locally still relate WN to schlepping to PVD/MHT despite the fact they’ve been at Logan since 2009. WN has cut capacity here to MDW and DAL, and pretty much BWI, DEN, and STL seem to be their main markets from BOS.

B6 corporate customers based in BOS aren’t asking for STL. Again, it would be a very difficult route when you consider they have very limited recognition and awareness out of STL, no domestic connecting opportunities at Logan but perhaps a few interline carriers for international.
JAL007 ... exactly! That is why JetBlue is limited in the heartland. The just added MSP to the east, but again... with DL monopoly I'm not sure how they will do. The only thing they are are filling in MSP is adding a Low Cost carrier to the east coast. WN has had very little success in MSP and growth there is slow.
You know, I'm not even surprised at this point.

STL BJ - Lambert airport adviser with contentious history is hired again

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... story.html
Year end PDEW (doesn't count connecting passengers) numbers for 2017

All numbers are for per day average passengers for 2017 in one direction.

Biggest Gainers for Year over Year
by number
PHX 42
Atlanta 29
New York 25
Miami 24
Denver 19
Austin 16

by % (only airports over 25 passengers per day)
Des Moines 22%
Wichita 21%
Charleston, SC 20%
Cincy 19%
Tucson, AZ 14%
Nashville 14%

Highest PDEW not served.
Jacksonville 59 (not counting less than daily on Frontier)
Norfolk, VA 56
Richmond, VA 45
ABQ 39
Reno 34
Tuscon 33

Last adds
Sacramento 81
Hartford 62

Full Stats
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Anyone know why AS appears to be using C27 (their usual gate is C15)? I assume there is a mechanical problem with the jetbridge and with so many surplus gates it’s easy for them to just move temporarily than more to get a quick repair.
JAL007 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:23 am
Anyone know why AS appears to be using C27 (their usual gate is C15)? I assume there is a mechanical problem with the jetbridge and with so many surplus gates it’s easy for them to just move temporarily than more to get a quick repair.
The only thing I could think of is they are doing concrete work and replacing fuel pipes. I know they have been moving other airlines around for it in the past. But that is just a guess.
Frontier extended their schedule today. There site isn't the easiest to navigate but it looks like they are adding 3 flights a week (M/W/Sat) to Denver. Also cutting Fort Myers and Tampa. So now we know why Sun Country added those 2. I could easily of missed some things.
Timely upload from the ever-interesting Wendover Productions.

The firm that hired Slay is the same that manages Heathrow. It seems the connecting-passenger nature of STL-Lambert is the appeal. If it follows Heathrow's model, (big if) longer hauls, bigger planes and more amenities are the keys to making it work.

https://youtu.be/wdU1WTBJMl0
JAL007 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:23 am
Anyone know why AS appears to be using C27 (their usual gate is C15)? I assume there is a mechanical problem with the jetbridge and with so many surplus gates it’s easy for them to just move temporarily than more to get a quick repair.
While there are plenty of surplus gates, it was my understanding from the RFP for reoppening the four or so additional gates in the works east of the wall in C that there is no comparable surplus of jet-bridges. I believe they had precisely two extra and that they would need to buy more to open those gates. Wasn't sure why they got rid of all the old ones off D, but my guess is many were destroyed in the tornado and why replace when when you have extras sitting around? So now they don't have extras. I'll go with Jshank and guess it's to do with the fuel. They've been tearing up a lot of concrete.

This was from May. Assuming they've filled these two holes and moved on . . . C15 would be about next in line. (If the gate switch persists for a while that'll be a good indication. Or if I go back out and take more pictures. But . . . not today.)

Image
shadrach wrote: Timely upload from the ever-interesting Wendover Productions.

The firm that hired Slay is the same that manages Heathrow. It seems the connecting-passenger nature of STL-Lambert is the appeal. If it follows Heathrow's model, (big if) longer hauls, bigger planes and more amenities are the keys to making it work.

https://youtu.be/wdU1WTBJMl0
Hard to argue with Wendover. He does good work. But I have to think you need a different model for Lambert than Heathrow. And that still doesn't answer the "magic pot of money" question of why the city gets a better return when an operator is taking a cut. Sure, long haul is more profitable. And I think the airport folks know that and are doing what they can to attract more. Ditto connecting traffic. (Though potentially at the small plane cost described.)

Now, if the private investor negotiates better contracts that would make sense. (Meaning, most likely, they'd pay their employees less. At least for starters. Which, oddly, takes money out of local tax coffers by the back door, even if more seems to be coming through the airport door. So, actually, that makes sense. There could be other less ominous ways, but that would be an obvious one. And of course not everyone working at the airport lives in the city or pays the same city taxes. Maybe it'd hurt the county more, thus moving money to the city instead. For a price. Pure speculation.)

Anyway, I don't know. There's a lot of good press about Heathrow, but I've heard a lot of negative as well. (Quite possibly mostly from Brits complaining they can't connect there.)

Of course, Wendover does at least try to point out why money losing small public airports can make sense as well. (Though he doesn't go into detail. But all that logic is on clear display in Columbia every time Boone County offers bigger subsidies to a new air carrier to go farther . . . than St. Louis. Heh! You've never heard the hate for Lambert until you've read an op-ed on why the (Mi) "Zou" needs MOWR PLANES! to stay relevant.) And it's three in the morning and I'm making less sense but finding myself funnier. So . . . g'night folks.

(But thank you Shadrach for making me at least a little less worried. Still worried, but . . . not quite as worried. Maybe they know what they're doing and won't just shaft us Kroenke style.)
^I am trying to keep an open mind on the privatization but so far it just has been a pretty big disaster in my opinion. Too many people look to be helping out their buddies and there hasn't been enough info coming out. I am hopeful they can get some proposals on the table and we can see what it really would look like. What does the city get out of it and how the numbers work out. I also am curious how they are going to get the airlines to sign off. They are going to have to find a way for them to make more money otherwise they aren't going to approve it. So now the airlines need more profits and the private company needs to get a cut while still not giving the city less than it gets now.
Continuing to evaluate STL getting more Euro service, I found this interesting.

Preliminary CY 2017 Commercial Service Enplanements Data

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... ements.pdf

STL is the 32nd busiest airport, which doesn't seem so good, but when compared to similar cities, it's huge.

STL has about the same traffic as Nashville and Austin. (Imagine those cities will pass STL soon)
STL is
  • 29% busier than KC
      60% busier than Cleveland
        60% busier than San Antonio
          66% busier than Indy (which is shocking...how did they get a better Euro flight than us)
            66% busier than Pittsburgh
              90% busier than Cinci (not sure how much longer Cinci can keep its Euro flights)
                96% busier than Columbus