St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

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First unread post4744 posts
It’s really a shame that we don’t have direct service to JFK, especially with the transatlantic options offered from there via Delta, etc

Does anyone remember if we’ve ever had a direct STL-JFK flight?

Years ago, I flew from the TWA terminal (I’m old) from JFK to STL via 727, but there was a stop at DCA on the way.

Sure do wish that Delta would add this to our daily flights as it opens up so many other options for us.

Jeff
jeffrk wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:50 am
It’s really a shame that we don’t have direct service to JFK, especially with the transatlantic options offered from there via Delta, etc

Does anyone remember if we’ve ever had a direct STL-JFK flight?

Years ago, I flew from the TWA terminal (I’m old) from JFK to STL via 727, but there was a stop at DCA on the way.

Sure do wish that Delta would add this to our daily flights as it opens up so many other options for us.

Jeff
AA did. Not sure about others. Greg on here would know better.

I agree with your thoughts though. The wife and I were planning a trip to Greece and Delta only flies to Athens from JFK. We are flying to AMS instead now for a week then going to Greece on a side trip from that. I am hopefully that whenever JetBlue does come they throw a JFK route in there, if Delta hasn't yet.
We flew from MXP-JFK last year on DL, via our (essentially free) RT deal with our Viking River Cruise. To get home, we had to then go JFK-ATL, then ATL-STL. I didn't mind so much (cost helped!), but the airplane nerd in me loved the fact that our planned JFK-ATL flight that was scheduled on an MD-88 turned into a 767-300 re-positioning flight.

We are looking to fly to NCE next year for a quick trip, and DL offers JFK-NCE non-stop in the summer. Sure would be great to do this in two legs from here!

I know, first world problems and all :)

Jeff
I went to the Wingtips Lounge at T2.

Here is my experience at the lounge.

https://allwheelsforward.com/st-louis-l ... ce-review/
When I left TW in 1998 there were 3 daily nonstops between STL and JFK. There were 6 nonstops between STL and EWR and 7 between STL and LGA.

They were using 727s, MD80s and 757s on the STL - JFK route in 1998.
March Numbers are out. 1.32 Mil for the month. Up 4.4%

Up 4.2% for the year.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf
jshank83 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:18 pm
March Numbers are out. 1.32 Mil for the month. Up 4.4%

Up 4.2% for the year.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf
That is some nice growth considering brutal March in the northeast and this whole quarter still dealing with the mass plane retirements from Southwest. Could see it pick up the pace a bit with new and expanded service coming online last month and in the future. Guessing year end growth will be at least 4.5% or more, especially considering next September will most likely have big spike since previous September was next to flat due to hurricanes that month.
pdm_ad wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:35 pm
When I left TW in 1998 there were 3 daily nonstops between STL and JFK. There were 6 nonstops between STL and EWR and 7 between STL and LGA.

They were using 727s, MD80s and 757s on the STL - JFK route in 1998.
That sounds about right.

Wasn't there period where one of the STL > JFK flights continued onto Europe with the same flight number?

I also remember in the late 80's flying on an L-1011 from JFK >STL.
^ I don't see a continuation flight onto Europe in my schedules from 1997 and 1998 but I wouldn't doubt that they did that at one time.

I checked the July 1997 schedule and there were 5 daily nonstops between STL and JFK using DC9s, MD80s, 727s, 757s, 767s, and the 747. What a lineup of planes!

L10s along with 747s were still in service for TW in 1997 but by February 1998 they had been retired.
pdm_ad wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:29 pm
^ I don't see a continuation flight onto Europe in my schedules from 1997 and 1998 but I wouldn't doubt that they did that at one time.

I checked the July 1997 schedule and there were 5 daily nonstops between STL and JFK using DC9s, MD80s, 727s, 757s, 767s, and the 747. What a lineup of planes!

L10s along with 747s were still in service for TW in 1997 but by February 1998 they had been retired.
I figured as much...

It really seems odd for STL to have no direct flights there. Seems about the largest missing piece of our options.

Jeff
10-intuition wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:31 pm
I went to the Wingtips Lounge at T2.

Here is my experience at the lounge.

https://allwheelsforward.com/st-louis-l ... ce-review/
Thanks for the writeup. I'll probably never have reason to use it but a nice amenity for Southwest Connections.
jeffrk wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:47 pm
pdm_ad wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:29 pm
^ I don't see a continuation flight onto Europe in my schedules from 1997 and 1998 but I wouldn't doubt that they did that at one time.

I checked the July 1997 schedule and there were 5 daily nonstops between STL and JFK using DC9s, MD80s, 727s, 757s, 767s, and the 747. What a lineup of planes!

L10s along with 747s were still in service for TW in 1997 but by February 1998 they had been retired.
I figured as much...

It really seems odd for STL to have no direct flights there. Seems about the largest missing piece of our options.

Jeff
American Eagle and Delta Connecttion have operated it in and off over the years but it’s never been a strong performer for a variety of reasons.

First, STL is within the LGA perimeter range and that’s the preferred airport for domestic O&D going to the city. Running a flight to JFK is undesirable for most traveling to the city and would have terrible yields.

Secondly, the vast majority of the international points STL-originating traffic heads to can be served by the carriers other hubs-DFW/ORD/PHL in the case of AA and ATL/DTW in the case of DL. Sure DL can operate STL-JFK for the two daily STL-NCE or STL-TLV passengers they’d capture, or just have those passengers double connect through another DL hub or across the Atlantic with AF/KL in AMS/CDG. Bottom line is the vast, vast majority of the traffic originating out of STL can be handled over the megahubs that are designed for flow traffic-as opposed to JFK which is clusters of separate terminals and has robust O&D demand in the tri-state area.

Third, while JFK has long been seen as an iconic global gateway as continues to serve many global carriers as their only or most significant US point, with the mega carriers we have today there’s no longer as much a need to fly to connect with interline partners when many points are served within a carriers network or through an established JV.

Specific to AA, the former US Airways leadership team that is running the combined company has continued to de-emphasize JFK’s role in the network to just premium transcons, other hubs, and a small number of European and domestic routes. Pretty much all of the Caribbean mainstays are gone-including San Juan-aside from some opportunistic, easy to make money seasonal flying. Basically JFK has been pruned down to the best performers optimized for O&D and AA’s oneworld partners have backfilled much of the empty space in the large (still underutilized terminal).

I wouldn’t sweat not having JFK service, for STL it really doesn’t add any value in terms of connectivity or NY O&D.
JAL007 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:56 pm

American Eagle and Delta Connecttion have operated it in and off over the years but it’s never been a strong performer for a variety of reasons.

First, STL is within the LGA perimeter range and that’s the preferred airport for domestic O&D going to the city. Running a flight to JFK is undesirable for most traveling to the city and would have terrible yields.

Secondly, the vast majority of the international points STL-originating traffic heads to can be served by the carriers other hubs-DFW/ORD/PHL in the case of AA and ATL/DTW in the case of DL. Sure DL can operate STL-JFK for the two daily STL-NCE or STL-TLV passengers they’d capture, or just have those passengers double connect through another DL hub or across the Atlantic with AF/KL in AMS/CDG. Bottom line is the vast, vast majority of the traffic originating out of STL can be handled over the megahubs that are designed for flow traffic-as opposed to JFK which is clusters of separate terminals and has robust O&D demand in the tri-state area.

Third, while JFK has long been seen as an iconic global gateway as continues to serve many global carriers as their only or most significant US point, with the mega carriers we have today there’s no longer as much a need to fly to connect with interline partners when many points are served within a carriers network or through an established JV.

Specific to AA, the former US Airways leadership team that is running the combined company has continued to de-emphasize JFK’s role in the network to just premium transcons, other hubs, and a small number of European and domestic routes. Pretty much all of the Caribbean mainstays are gone-including San Juan-aside from some opportunistic, easy to make money seasonal flying. Basically JFK has been pruned down to the best performers optimized for O&D and AA’s oneworld partners have backfilled much of the empty space in the large (still underutilized terminal).

I wouldn’t sweat not having JFK service, for STL it really doesn’t add any value in terms of connectivity or NY O&D.
All good points. For me, I was just more surprised DL was running some routes like ATH from JFK and not ATL. I figured any TATL route they ran at the very least ran from ATL.
DL has served ATL-ATH and ATL-TLV in the past. Both went away circa 2010/11.

There are a few other marginal seasonal points like CPH, EDI, and GLA that are only served from JFK but not ATL. With the amount of O&D the NY market provides, it wouldn’t be viable to operate those from ATL requiring significantly more block time, fuel, and in some cases larger aircraft gauge (763 vs. 752)
10-intuition wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:31 pm
I went to the Wingtips Lounge at T2.

Here is my experience at the lounge.

https://allwheelsforward.com/st-louis-l ... ce-review/

That's a nice review! I am definitely feeling the need to check it out next time I have some time to kill at the airport.
JAL007 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:17 am
DL has served ATL-ATH and ATL-TLV in the past. Both went away circa 2010/11.

There are a few other marginal seasonal points like CPH, EDI, and GLA that are only served from JFK but not ATL. With the amount of O&D the NY market provides, it wouldn’t be viable to operate those from ATL requiring significantly more block time, fuel, and in some cases larger aircraft gauge (763 vs. 752)
Isn't some of these markets listed places the WOW flight will have onward connections to? So there would be another one-stop option to some of those markets.
So I was going through my frequency database for June and updating it. Southwest made a few changes from their original schedule release.

Added an extra flight to Orlando every day but Friday. (to 5x m-th, 4x on fri, 6x sat/sun)
Added an extra flight to New Orleans on Friday only (to 3x).
Added an extra flight to Tampa on Saturday only (to 5x).

So it will now be 116 flights Mon-Friday. 99 on Saturday and 120 on Sunday. 799 a week.

They could have just added one more to Saturday to make it an even 100 and 800 total.. but I like round numbers...

I'll have the entire thing up later in the week.
jshank83 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:49 am
So I was going through my frequency database for June and updating it. Southwest made a few changes from their original schedule release.

Added an extra flight to Orlando every day but Friday. (to 5x m-th, 4x on fri, 6x sat/sun)
Added an extra flight to New Orleans on Friday only (to 3x).
Added an extra flight to Tampa on Saturday only (to 5x).

So it will now be 116 flights Mon-Friday. 99 on Saturday and 120 on Sunday. 799 a week.

They could have just added one more to Saturday to make it an even 100 and 800 total.. but I like round numbers...

I'll have the entire thing up later in the week.
That's weird. I don't remember Southwest ever changing frequency by day of week during the week, i've only seen them adjust on weekends. Maybe this is a change in strategy to where they may start adjusting weekday frequencies.
imperialmog wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:57 am


That's weird. I don't remember Southwest ever changing frequency by day of week during the week, i've only seen them adjust on weekends. Maybe this is a change in strategy to where they may start adjusting weekday frequencies.
It is pretty new. It is the first time I have seen it for us. The first time overall I saw it was about a month ago when it was tweeted out about a route in KC running every day except Friday.
STL/BLV Flight Frequency (to each city) Spreadsheet for June

flights per week
Southwest 799
American 271
Delta 195
United 191
Cape Air 119
Air Choice One 62
Allegiant (BLV) 30
Frontier 28
Alaska 20
Air Canada 19
Swift Air 6
WOW 5


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
JAL007 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:17 am
DL has served ATL-ATH and ATL-TLV in the past. Both went away circa 2010/11.

There are a few other marginal seasonal points like CPH, EDI, and GLA that are only served from JFK but not ATL. With the amount of O&D the NY market provides, it wouldn’t be viable to operate those from ATL requiring significantly more block time, fuel, and in some cases larger aircraft gauge (763 vs. 752)
I flew YYZ to TLV this last year. I have to think YYZ has some other points that JFK has but ATL. Also I really enjoy YYZ, and try to avoid NYC airports in general.
RuskiSTL wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:51 pm
JAL007 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:17 am
DL has served ATL-ATH and ATL-TLV in the past. Both went away circa 2010/11.

There are a few other marginal seasonal points like CPH, EDI, and GLA that are only served from JFK but not ATL. With the amount of O&D the NY market provides, it wouldn’t be viable to operate those from ATL requiring significantly more block time, fuel, and in some cases larger aircraft gauge (763 vs. 752)
I flew YYZ to TLV this last year. I have to think YYZ has some other points that JFK has but ATL. Also I really enjoy YYZ, and try to avoid NYC airports in general.
Good point. YYZ does have a lot of those destinations one stop. It did have ATH but it was on their rouge product and not at a discount, so I wasn't interested. I don't mind YYZ either (although I wish flights to YYZ as my final destination were cheaper). And UA also has ATH from Newark but it started for summer a couple weeks after I am going. So there are other options that make JFK not really all that needed. I just like having the JFK options selfishly. haha
jshank83 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:41 pm
RuskiSTL wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:51 pm
JAL007 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:17 am
DL has served ATL-ATH and ATL-TLV in the past. Both went away circa 2010/11.

There are a few other marginal seasonal points like CPH, EDI, and GLA that are only served from JFK but not ATL. With the amount of O&D the NY market provides, it wouldn’t be viable to operate those from ATL requiring significantly more block time, fuel, and in some cases larger aircraft gauge (763 vs. 752)
I flew YYZ to TLV this last year. I have to think YYZ has some other points that JFK has but ATL. Also I really enjoy YYZ, and try to avoid NYC airports in general.
Good point. YYZ does have a lot of those destinations one stop. It did have ATH but it was on their rouge product and not at a discount, so I wasn't interested. I don't mind YYZ either (although I wish flights to YYZ as my final destination were cheaper). And UA also has ATH from Newark but it started for summer a couple weeks after I am going. So there are other options that make JFK not really all that needed. I just like having the JFK options selfishly. haha
I'm eager to see Laguardia post construction but honestly YYZ is so much nicer/newer/calmer than NYC airports. I really do enjoy my layovers there.
pdm_ad wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:29 pm
^ I don't see a continuation flight onto Europe in my schedules from 1997 and 1998 but I wouldn't doubt that they did that at one time.
In my 1992 schedule 844 is a one stop direct to Frankfurt via JFK. I'm pretty sure that's actually the first flight I ever road, aboard an L-1011 at that time. (I have a picture of the plane and I know the route. The only thing in question is the number. And it's about got to be 844 at least to NY. Could have been something else after that.) I'm a little surprised that's the only continuation i can find via JFK, but I'm sure things shifted around a lot seasonally.
I checked the July 1997 schedule and there were 5 daily nonstops between STL and JFK using DC9s, MD80s, 727s, 757s, 767s, and the 747. What a lineup of planes!

L10s along with 747s were still in service for TW in 1997 but by February 1998 they had been retired.
What on earth would they have been doing with a 47 on the STL-JFK route if not continuing . . . somewhere? Maybe they continued through St. Louis to the west coast or Hawaii? (I know they did that on some flights at some points. Can't really think of any other reason to put a widebody on that route.)

Anyway, yes, the service was there at one point. I can verify that from firsthand experience.

Image
TWA L-1011 N11003 glides over Jamaica Bay on approach to JFK from St. Louis.

Apart from the fact that it was completely cloudy until we got to the coast, I couldn't really have asked for a better first flight. Yamasaki's STL to Saarinen's JFK, complete with a nice circle around New York harbor where I could both Liberty Island and Manhattan out the window on a sunny summer afternoon. (And then sunrise over the British Isles after a bit of a layover at an un-airconditioned JFK. Yeah, that part was more troublesome. Things didn't always work so well at JFK in the early 90s. The place was dirty and darn broken down. And now I wish I'd spent more time there and maybe actually taken a few pictures at the airport. Ah well. Tastes change.)
Southwest announced they will fly to Hawaii from Sacramento, San Jose, San Diego, and Oakland. I guess it's good we have service to all of those now. Since they don't do redeyes, it will be interesting to see how they try to funnel people back east. I'm sure west coast travelers are their focus though. Maybe we will get lucky and get a direct (one stop) flight thru one of them.