2100 South 12th Street in Soulard

Discuss renovations and new residential construction in South City -- defined by the area south of Interstate 44/55.
Anybody have much background on this property?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mo/ ... _18142119/

Used to live down the street from it and looking at the tax records it appears to still be owned by the Catholic Church but not finding out much else. Thoughts on redevelopment into an apartment complex with maybe some retail/restaurant space incorporated?
My guess is that it was a former parish hall or school building at one point for St Joseph's Croatian Catholic Church, which is next door. Other then that, I don't know a whole lot about it. Would make for a nice creative space though.
Got it. Anybody familiar with the process for historical tax credits and/or TIF?
HTCs go through the state. It seems they're doing their best to award as few as possible in the end, if the experience one property I'm familiar with is typical.
https://ded.mo.gov/programs/business/hi ... eservation

Look into state neighborhood preservation tax credits.
https://ded.mo.gov/programs/community/n ... vation-act

I doubt TIF makes sense here. A property tax abatement is more suited I think. Talk to the alderman
bakos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:57 am
Anybody have much background on this property?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mo/ ... _18142119/

Used to live down the street from it and looking at the tax records it appears to still be owned by the Catholic Church but not finding out much else. Thoughts on redevelopment into an apartment complex with maybe some retail/restaurant space incorporated?
This is a building me and Scottie have looked at to renovate into the uses you brought up recently. We have taken a break on the Spivey in East STL and are looking at something in the City. This building came up, and we have looked at it in great detail even going as far as to brainstorm, but we haven't attmepted to acquire it yet. So if you want to acquire it, go ahead! I think it would do well (leasing wise) with 10 or 12 apartments here and some nice sized retail space. Soulard is hot right now, so a development like this would fill up quickly.
^ so basically ESTL isn't cooperating and Spivey gets demolished?

Also this conversation should be in the South St. Louis section and not the Downtown section of the forum.
urban_dilettante wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:48 pm
^ so basically ESTL isn't cooperating and Spivey gets demolished?

Also this conversation should be in the South St. Louis section and not the Downtown section of the forum.
Yes. I'll post the full reason in the Spivey thread so this can stay on topic for the building in Soulard.
quincunx wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:21 pm
HTCs go through the state. It seems they're doing their best to award as few as possible in the end, if the experience one property I'm familiar with is typical.
https://ded.mo.gov/programs/business/hi ... eservation

Look into state neighborhood preservation tax credits.
https://ded.mo.gov/programs/community/n ... vation-act

I doubt TIF makes sense here. A property tax abatement is more suited I think. Talk to the alderman
Can you expand a bit on the TIF aspect? I understand the mechanics but if there is something in practice that makes you think that wouldn't be a useful approach then please feel free to share your thoughts if you're up to it. Thanks!
I'd definitely talk to people more in the know about incentive programs.

It seems to me that TIF'd projects are usually bigger and new construction with big retail components.
chriss752 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:29 pm
bakos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:57 am
Anybody have much background on this property?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mo/ ... _18142119/

Used to live down the street from it and looking at the tax records it appears to still be owned by the Catholic Church but not finding out much else. Thoughts on redevelopment into an apartment complex with maybe some retail/restaurant space incorporated?
This is a building me and Scottie have looked at to renovate into the uses you brought up recently. We have taken a break on the Spivey in East STL and are looking at something in the City. This building came up, and we have looked at it in great detail even going as far as to brainstorm, but we haven't attmepted to acquire it yet. So if you want to acquire it, go ahead! I think it would do well (leasing wise) with 10 or 12 apartments here and some nice sized retail space. Soulard is hot right now, so a development like this would fill up quickly.
What type of conclusion did you come to that pushed you away from pursuing it? Just trying to pick your brain. I was thinking 4 levels with 4 2 bedroom apartments (or segmenting some of it into 1 bedrooms) and building out something on the rooftop or reserving some of the lowest level for retail.
We were close to going under contract on this several years ago when we found out it is deed restricted. The adjacent church sold it to the current owner, and when they did they restricted it so that no residential can be built here.

SO-- if you have a large office user looking in Soulard, this is your deal!
kinger wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:10 pm
We were close to going under contract on this several years ago when we found out it is deed restricted. The adjacent church sold it to the current owner, and when they did they restricted it so that no residential can be built here.

SO-- if you have a large office user looking in Soulard, this is your deal!
Gotcha, thanks for the info.
bakos wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:57 am
chriss752 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:29 pm
bakos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:57 am
Anybody have much background on this property?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mo/ ... _18142119/

Used to live down the street from it and looking at the tax records it appears to still be owned by the Catholic Church but not finding out much else. Thoughts on redevelopment into an apartment complex with maybe some retail/restaurant space incorporated?
This is a building me and Scottie have looked at to renovate into the uses you brought up recently. We have taken a break on the Spivey in East STL and are looking at something in the City. This building came up, and we have looked at it in great detail even going as far as to brainstorm, but we haven't attmepted to acquire it yet. So if you want to acquire it, go ahead! I think it would do well (leasing wise) with 10 or 12 apartments here and some nice sized retail space. Soulard is hot right now, so a development like this would fill up quickly.
What type of conclusion did you come to that pushed you away from pursuing it? Just trying to pick your brain. I was thinking 4 levels with 4 2 bedroom apartments (or segmenting some of it into 1 bedrooms) and building out something on the rooftop or reserving some of the lowest level for retail.
Basically what Kinger said. The deed restricted the plans even though we constantly tried to contact the Church about seeing if they could change their tone on the deed. They people we talked to, at the church, were slightly open to it but they want it done a certain way which ultimately is leading to us a bottleneck. So we may pursue it or we may not. It ultimately comes down to if the Realtor is willing to accept a change in the deed from the Church if it's not to late.

If office was pursued, another floor would have to be added to make it more attractive overall. I have no doubt that this will fill up as office space (currently 19,000SF) and it could be marketed towards creative firms and small law offices. The additional floor could either be a rooftop bar or more office space but the cost of adding a floor would be astronomical as the main structure would have to be tested to see if it could handle an expansion.
chriss752 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:50 pm
bakos wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:57 am
chriss752 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:29 pm


This is a building me and Scottie have looked at to renovate into the uses you brought up recently. We have taken a break on the Spivey in East STL and are looking at something in the City. This building came up, and we have looked at it in great detail even going as far as to brainstorm, but we haven't attmepted to acquire it yet. So if you want to acquire it, go ahead! I think it would do well (leasing wise) with 10 or 12 apartments here and some nice sized retail space. Soulard is hot right now, so a development like this would fill up quickly.
What type of conclusion did you come to that pushed you away from pursuing it? Just trying to pick your brain. I was thinking 4 levels with 4 2 bedroom apartments (or segmenting some of it into 1 bedrooms) and building out something on the rooftop or reserving some of the lowest level for retail.
Basically what Kinger said. The deed restricted the plans even though we constantly tried to contact the Church about seeing if they could change their tone on the deed. They people we talked to, at the church, were slightly open to it but they want it done a certain way which ultimately is leading to us a bottleneck. So we may pursue it or we may not. It ultimately comes down to if the Realtor is willing to accept a change in the deed from the Church if it's not to late.

If office was pursued, another floor would have to be added to make it more attractive overall. I have no doubt that this will fill up as office space (currently 19,000SF) and it could be marketed towards creative firms and small law offices. The additional floor could either be a rooftop bar or more office space but the cost of adding a floor would be astronomical as the main structure would have to be tested to see if it could handle an expansion.
I think that getting the deed changed would be a contingency. I agree that a creative firm or law offices might do well but I have less confidence in the demand for that type of space in Soulard (at least relying fully on it). Agree that adding a full floor would be a very significant expense; but I thought a mixed indoor outdoor space with the actual structure taking up maybe only a third of the roof would be less expensive and more realistic.
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:28 am
chriss752 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:50 pm
bakos wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:57 am


What type of conclusion did you come to that pushed you away from pursuing it? Just trying to pick your brain. I was thinking 4 levels with 4 2 bedroom apartments (or segmenting some of it into 1 bedrooms) and building out something on the rooftop or reserving some of the lowest level for retail.
Basically what Kinger said. The deed restricted the plans even though we constantly tried to contact the Church about seeing if they could change their tone on the deed. They people we talked to, at the church, were slightly open to it but they want it done a certain way which ultimately is leading to us a bottleneck. So we may pursue it or we may not. It ultimately comes down to if the Realtor is willing to accept a change in the deed from the Church if it's not to late.

If office was pursued, another floor would have to be added to make it more attractive overall. I have no doubt that this will fill up as office space (currently 19,000SF) and it could be marketed towards creative firms and small law offices. The additional floor could either be a rooftop bar or more office space but the cost of adding a floor would be astronomical as the main structure would have to be tested to see if it could handle an expansion.
I think that getting the deed changed would be a contingency. I agree that a creative firm or law offices might do well but I have less confidence in the demand for that type of space in Soulard (at least relying fully on it). Agree that adding a full floor would be a very significant expense; but I thought a mixed indoor outdoor space with the actual structure taking up maybe only a third of the roof would be less expensive and more realistic.
We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
kinger wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:11 pm
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:28 am
chriss752 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:50 pm


Basically what Kinger said. The deed restricted the plans even though we constantly tried to contact the Church about seeing if they could change their tone on the deed. They people we talked to, at the church, were slightly open to it but they want it done a certain way which ultimately is leading to us a bottleneck. So we may pursue it or we may not. It ultimately comes down to if the Realtor is willing to accept a change in the deed from the Church if it's not to late.

If office was pursued, another floor would have to be added to make it more attractive overall. I have no doubt that this will fill up as office space (currently 19,000SF) and it could be marketed towards creative firms and small law offices. The additional floor could either be a rooftop bar or more office space but the cost of adding a floor would be astronomical as the main structure would have to be tested to see if it could handle an expansion.
I think that getting the deed changed would be a contingency. I agree that a creative firm or law offices might do well but I have less confidence in the demand for that type of space in Soulard (at least relying fully on it). Agree that adding a full floor would be a very significant expense; but I thought a mixed indoor outdoor space with the actual structure taking up maybe only a third of the roof would be less expensive and more realistic.
We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
Very disappointing to hear that. I guess they would prefer a deteriorating building sitting unused next to them.
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:52 pm
kinger wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:11 pm
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:28 am


I think that getting the deed changed would be a contingency. I agree that a creative firm or law offices might do well but I have less confidence in the demand for that type of space in Soulard (at least relying fully on it). Agree that adding a full floor would be a very significant expense; but I thought a mixed indoor outdoor space with the actual structure taking up maybe only a third of the roof would be less expensive and more realistic.
We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
Very disappointing to hear that. I guess they would prefer a deteriorating building sitting unused next to them.
One last question for you Kinger...did you see the interior of the building? What were your thoughts there?
kinger wrote: We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
How long ago was this? Because when we met with them, they requested tons of restrictions for residential that ultimately made it seem like they still don't want it there. Clearly that's the case on their end but they seemed more open to talk about with us last month. Who knows why they don't want residents next door, we never got that far to ask them.
chriss752 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:24 pm
kinger wrote: We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
How long ago was this? Because when we met with them, they requested tons of restrictions for residential that ultimately made it seem like they still don't want it there. Clearly that's the case on their end but they seemed more open to talk about with us last month. Who knows why they don't want residents next door, we never got that far to ask them.
Hmm interesting. What types of restrictions were they looking for?
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:59 pm
chriss752 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:24 pm
kinger wrote: We met with the church a couple times... and even brought in one of their parishioners as a partner in our project as an attempt to remove the restriction, but it fell on deaf ears. They just do NOT want residential there.
How long ago was this? Because when we met with them, they requested tons of restrictions for residential that ultimately made it seem like they still don't want it there. Clearly that's the case on their end but they seemed more open to talk about with us last month. Who knows why they don't want residents next door, we never got that far to ask them.
Hmm interesting. What types of restrictions were they looking for?
- No outside amenities.
- Not to interfere with their events and doings.
- No more than 4 apartments
- All windows must be bricked up on the facade facing the church
- No bright lights outside (security, parking)

When asked if office was ok, they said yes and discarded their restrictions above,
chriss752 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:35 pm
bakos wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:59 pm
chriss752 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:24 pm


How long ago was this? Because when we met with them, they requested tons of restrictions for residential that ultimately made it seem like they still don't want it there. Clearly that's the case on their end but they seemed more open to talk about with us last month. Who knows why they don't want residents next door, we never got that far to ask them.
Hmm interesting. What types of restrictions were they looking for?
- No outside amenities.
- Not to interfere with their events and doings.
- No more than 4 apartments
- All windows must be bricked up on the facade facing the church
- No bright lights outside (security, parking)

When asked if office was ok, they said yes and discarded their restrictions above,
Lol what a joke.
^ this is absolute bullsh*t. a tax-exempt organization has no right to demand this stuff. this is the type of situation where the city needs to step in and tell the church to shove it. it's a f*cking urban neighborhood with a demand for residential.