City/Urban Specific Transit Planning

jstriebel · PostJan 15, 2014#12014-01-15T17:04+00:00

Metro does a decent enough job serving the region, but that's essentially it's fundamental flaw. It is tasked with making decisions to serve the region. And due to the short-term and divisive mindsets that are all too common in the St. Louis area, serving the region is taken on a very literal basis.

Would strengthening the urban core benefit the region? Yes. Would connecting downtown to Soulard, Tower Grove, Old North, Dogtown, etc. benefit visitors who come into downtown from the suburbs? Absolutely.

But unless a line runs from Chesterfield to Soulard, it doesn't seem to qualify. Unfortunate, but that's the situation where in, so what can we do about it?

Is there room for another body to govern transportation within the city and/or the urban core? (I tentatively support a full-merger, so I hesitate to just use the term the "city." Besides, parts of U-City and Clayton and others could fall into what I might consider the urban core. So this isn't about manmade boundaries, it's just about discussing a more condensed and more urban part of the region.)

Currently there is Metro. There is the Loop Trolley (which Metro is now somewhat involved in). There is the Downtown Street Car. I'd suggest the latter two could fall under a new and expanded umbrella that seeks to have a greater plan for connectivity of transit in the urban core. This would hopefully compliment Metro, and with Metro's real experience, hopefully they would be involved in some form.

There is also STL Citizens for Mass Transit, who works closely with Metro and would be another complimentary body.

Could this happen? And here's the real question. Could a few citizens like us actually get it off the ground? Am I dreaming too big? Is there an existing system this should go through?

It just frustrates me that I don't see any real momentum for something like this. I hear people talk about it. I see those two street car plans. But I think it could be so much greater than that.

pat · PostJan 15, 2014#22014-01-15T17:22+00:00

I think there really needs to be a St. Louis City Urban Transit agency that concentrates only on the urban transit needs of the city. Its purpose should be using creating urban-oriented transit options and development for the city as well as connecting neighborhoods. Basically the city needs an agency that targets city transit needs. Metro doesn't fully do that. Like you said, its too regional.

I think a way to start it is to do what people have started with the Downtown streetcar. We need to organize businesses/citizens push for streetcar lines in other parts of the city (such as north or south city). If those all progress, maybe you have around three separate streetcar lines. Its beneficial for all of those lines to be managed by the same group. Make the owner a new transit arm of the Street Department and outsource operations to Metro.

Personally, I envision something along the lines a simple streetcar network.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 15, 2014#32014-01-15T17:59+00:00

^ Great idea and I think really needed for our future. Even a basic network that hits the key corridors would be a major step forward. The Downtown Streetcar must happen and we'll see where it goes from there.

thunderbird · PostJan 15, 2014#42014-01-15T18:31+00:00

Interesting idea - but I'm not convinced another government-sponsored agency would be the right approach or best thing for our region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the historic streetcar grid was entirely the creation of private ventures. The business of streetcars was replaced by the business of buses.

My point is that if building streetcar lines from one urban neighborhood to another were a profitable venture, then we would have private companies building it our for us. The unfortunate reality is that new streetcar routes are not profitable (too capital-intensive) and are reliant on public and support. Just look at all the public funding the loop trolley co had to find to get their project off the ground. If you look into their projected financials, they never expect to support their operations through fare revenue alone...

pat · PostJan 15, 2014#52014-01-15T19:18+00:00

^Well, that sounds like all the more reason to have a public entity that oversees urban transit. The downtown streetcar can only work if its funded with federal dollars and some form of a local tax. Your right, a streetcar is not going to built with only private dollars and run by a private company. Its too difficult to do privately. This also wouldn't be a regional entity. It would just be for the City of St. Louis where this sort of transit could be maximized.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 15, 2014#62014-01-15T19:31+00:00

thunderbird wrote:Interesting idea - but I'm not convinced another government-sponsored agency would be the right approach or best thing for our region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the historic streetcar grid was entirely the creation of private ventures. The business of streetcars was replaced by the business of buses.

My point is that if building streetcar lines from one urban neighborhood to another were a profitable venture, then we would have private companies building it our for us. The unfortunate reality is that new streetcar routes are not profitable (too capital-intensive) and are reliant on public and support. Just look at all the public funding the loop trolley co had to find to get their project off the ground. If you look into their projected financials, they never expect to support their operations through fare revenue alone...

The question is whether investment in a basic public transit network makes sense from a public infrastructure view, not from whether TRANSITCORP can make money. Same thing with highways, etc. (although increasingly corporations are getting into the game.)

jstriebel · PostJan 15, 2014#72014-01-15T20:01+00:00

So here's a related question then: where does the Downtown street car plan stand? I know there was a feasibility study released. Is anything going on with it now?

pat · PostJan 15, 2014#82014-01-15T20:12+00:00

Check out page 74

http://www.downtownstl.org/docs/StLouis ... -Final.pdf

I remember hearing that there should be more progress made in spring 2014, but I'm not sure where I read that.

You might be able to find more info here http://www.downtownstl.org/streetcar.aspx

jstriebel · PostJan 15, 2014#92014-01-15T20:32+00:00

Yeah, I found that just now. I went ahead and emailed the contact on that site to see if I could get an update. Hopefully there is one.

The feasibility study says that the environmental study and the financial planning should be in progress right now. It calls for engineering and design in 2015 and construction in 2016-17.

PostJan 16, 2014#102014-01-16T00:07+00:00

I got a response back from Matt Schindler of the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis, and it was a pretty good one.

They of course released the feasibility study back in March, and the projected was unanimously approved to be added to the regions long-range plan by the East-West Gateway.

The next step has been to secure funding for to begin the next required levels of study. Matt noted that the Federal Transit Authority has budgeted planning funds the past two years (including this one) but not released it. They are hopeful that the FTA will release it soon and then they hope to be able to apply and secure some of that funding. He stated that it will also require a local match of about $300,000 and that they are working to raise that in the meantime.

They have incorporated as the St. Louis Streetcar Company and are working on an application to become a 501c3.

As far as timeline goes, Matt stated that currently they're about 6 months behind where they hoped. Knowing how these sorts of things go, I'd say that's not bad. While he can't obviously guarantee dates, he said they hope to get these next studies started this year. Let's hope the FTA releases the funding and this project gets approved.

Another interesting item he passed on is a meeting in Old North where he'll be giving a presentation on the streetcar proposal:

Please join us for the January Neighborhood Open Meeting next Thursday, January 23, at 6:30 pm at Old North Saint Louis Restoration Group. We have several great speakers lines up, including a presentation on the planned St. Louis Streetcar that will run on North Florissant to St. Louis Ave. The meeting is open to anyone that would like to attend.

Finally, he encouraged citizens like us to just help raise awareness for now. Talk to people about the project. Share it on Facebook (/stlstreetcar) and Twitter (@stlstreetcar), and contact your Alderperson and/or the Mayor.

Very glad to have gotten the response. It sounds like the people behind this share a lot of the thinking I expressed in the initial post and others have as well. He even suggested this initial proposal is a "Phase 1". They see many phases beyond this, and even the feasibility study notes the intention to make this a line of transit throughout the city.

Hard to be too excited about something that hasn't even completed all the studies, but I'm excited anyways. This is what we need. Now we've got to hope the FTA comes through with the funding and let our representatives know it needs to be a priority.

goat314 · PostJan 16, 2014#112014-01-16T01:16+00:00

^ sounds good, seems like they realize that Metro expansion in the city is a far off dream and that streetcars are our best hope for rail transit in the core for the foreseeable future. I would like the City of St. Louis to get behind streetcars as away to stabilize neighborhoods and bring economic development/tourism to the city. I actually like they plan of a couple streetcar lines radiating from the Metrolink spine. Build the N-S line as a streetcar, then maybe a Grand Avenue line etc.

americancitizen · PostJan 16, 2014#122014-01-16T15:48+00:00

While fixed rail street cars running through the city is a wonderful concept (and just think it used to be already here), the costs associated with that kind of infrastructure and operations are immense and the projects take years even in the best locations and with the right support (Loop Trolley for example).

What we started talking about in the partially hi-jacked Soulard Market thread was a simple shuttle system running on major streets. Creating a network of lines that would put the majority of city residents only a few block walk at most from a north/south or east/west line. Utilizing the existing city street grid for effective day to day transportation, without your car.

It developed out of the concept that for practical day to day connections to city amenities via public transportation is effectively useless from a time, convenience and efficiency standpoint. Just look at the bus routes on the metro site for example. Even the Downtown Trolley - which is the closest approximation to the concept has a pretty convoluted route.

Instead, imagine a shuttle (or bus or whatever wheeled vehicle you prefer) that ran every up and down Grand, so you knew when you got on the vehicle you could get anywhere on Grand. And if you needed to go E/W you simply got off on the major E/W street running closest to your destination. Since most major city amenities (parks, markets, shopping, etc) are on major routes, the connections are limitless. And with smart-phones and gps, tracking the next vehicle on the route can be time effective. And I bet bars, restaurants, convenience stores, etc near the stops wouldn't mind riders having a bite, beer, or picking up some goods while waiting.

I don't know if its financially feasible or who should run it, but it seems like a simple system that could be up and running and providing benefits to city residents and visitor and enhanced quality of life much sooner than the fixed rail streetcar lines. (again those would be great, just don't want to wait til I am drawing social security to ride them).

ward24 · PostJan 16, 2014#132014-01-16T16:55+00:00

I'd offer a little different perspective on how to get to what you guys are talking about. In my opinion two things are required:

1.) A group that actually advocates in the bast interest of transit riders. St. Louis doesn't have that. That's not what CMT does, and its not what CMT is going to do. The fact that the 70/Grand bus has been over capacity for years without a service upgrade yet is the kind of thing a real advocacy group would try to point out and fix.

2.) State funding for transit. This is the big one, and this is where we are way behind other states, even states like Texas. Metro is funded entirely with local sales tax revenue and fares. Almost no other transit agency has to operate that way. Rather than creating another, city focused transit agency, Metro would be fully capable of operating better City service and potentially building a modest streetcar network if they had reasonable funding from the state. Another tier transit agency would have all of the same limitations of Metro and none of the economics of scale. The state has an $8 billion discretionary budget - a mere 1/2% of that would be enough to allow Metro to be constantly upgrading service. Metro's main problem isn't that it doesn't want to build a better network, its that it doesn't have either the capital or operating revenue to do it. St. Louis City and County are more than paying our way, the place to get more money is from the state.

The fact that both the Loop Trolley and downtown streetcar are trying to figure out how to build streetcars without Metro or state support is a testament to the fact that the demand and vision is there. But The Loop Streetcar's experience also shows how difficult it is to build transit without a transit agency to manage the process.

The fact that we can't spend the gas tax on transit in Missouri is frequently raised as a barrier to state funding. Big deal - all of the state's general revenue could be directed at transit, its just a political decision to not do it. The money is out there, its only in the 10's of millions from the state, a tiny fraction of their budget. That's how to get better transit service.

But at the end of the day - we aren't telling our local representation that this should be a top priority. And I think that's what people should organize around.

Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman

pat · PostJan 16, 2014#142014-01-16T17:00+00:00

^I agree strongly on the state funding. Most of our transit ideas are pipe dreams unless we get more funding.

PostJan 16, 2014#152014-01-16T17:15+00:00

americancitizen wrote:

While fixed rail street cars running through the city is a wonderful concept (and just think it used to be already here), the costs associated with that kind of infrastructure and operations are immense and the projects take years even in the best locations and with the right support (Loop Trolley for example).

What we started talking about in the partially hi-jacked Soulard Market thread was a simple shuttle system running on major streets. Creating a network of lines that would put the majority of city residents only a few block walk at most from a north/south or east/west line. Utilizing the existing city street grid for effective day to day transportation, without your car.

It developed out of the concept that for practical day to day connections to city amenities via public transportation is effectively useless from a time, convenience and efficiency standpoint. Just look at the bus routes on the metro site for example. Even the Downtown Trolley - which is the closest approximation to the concept has a pretty convoluted route.

Instead, imagine a shuttle (or bus or whatever wheeled vehicle you prefer) that ran every up and down Grand, so you knew when you got on the vehicle you could get anywhere on Grand. And if you needed to go E/W you simply got off on the major E/W street running closest to your destination. Since most major city amenities (parks, markets, shopping, etc) are on major routes, the connections are limitless. And with smart-phones and gps, tracking the next vehicle on the route can be time effective. And I bet bars, restaurants, convenience stores, etc near the stops wouldn't mind riders having a bite, beer, or picking up some goods while waiting.

I don't know if its financially feasible or who should run it, but it seems like a simple system that could be up and running and providing benefits to city residents and visitor and enhanced quality of life much sooner than the fixed rail streetcar lines. (again those would be great, just don't want to wait til I am drawing social security to ride them).

It sounds like you're just describing our existing bus system. Our existing bus lines will take you to most places that you want to go. They are currently working on gps on buses. I believe Metro is testing it with their employees.

When it comes to streetcars vs buses, there's a lot of arguments to be made for either case. You can google all sorts of data of one vs the other. While streetcars costs more to install, they're maintenance costs are lower and they last much longer than buses. Vice versa for buses. There's capacity differences, environmetal differences, flexibility of lines, costs, etc. For me the strongest argument for streetcars is visual permanency, which has a huge advantage over buses. What I mean by that is, when a group/government/whatever decides to put in a streetcar line, they're telling the community, businesses, and residences "we are making a 50year + commitment to this line and the neighborhoods it runs through". That's a big statement towards development. If I'm a business or a future resident, that's a big visual statement and vote of confidence to invest in an area. That's why I'm big on streetcars or other forms of rail.

americancitizen · PostJan 16, 2014#162014-01-16T19:06+00:00

I'm all for streetcars for all the reasons you said, I guess I'm just mainly against the duration it takes to get them built. The Loop Trolley process has been a real eye opener (and not in a good way) for me.

I don't find the bus system as presently constructed as efficient or as easy to use as it could be and I wish it was more user friendly.

But practically, I'm not looking to make this a streetcars vs wheeled vehicle debate. In fact I am not looking to debate anything at all. Lets move away from that and focus on how to get positive results, whatever the method. In an ideal scenario I'd take the streetcar lines we once had and call it a day. If only.....man, that would be awesome to have right now.

pat · PostJan 16, 2014#172014-01-16T19:53+00:00

^Word. Totally agree.

jstriebel · PostJan 16, 2014#182014-01-16T22:42+00:00

So with the points made by Alderman Ogilvie, is there serious interest here in forming an advocacy group to fill the gap. To organize pressure on our state representatives?

I don't really know how that starts, but I'm up for giving it a try. Thoughts?

roger wyoming II · PostJan 16, 2014#192014-01-16T22:45+00:00

KC will be laying track soon for its Starter Line, and now is seeking a larger streetcar taxing district for further expansion. It may be on the ballot this April:

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... stcar.html

PostJan 16, 2014#202014-01-16T23:13+00:00

jstriebel wrote:So with the points made by Alderman Ogilvie, is there serious interest here in forming an advocacy group to fill the gap. To organize pressure on our state representatives?

I don't really know how that starts, but I'm up for giving it a try. Thoughts?

I'm not entirely clear on Scott's post as CMT does advocate for increased state funding for public transit along with other groups and in fact there will be a Lobby Day in February at the Capitol to advocate for such. (If you've never been to JC for citizen lobbying it might be an eye-opener and interesting to attend.)

update: here is the info on Transportation Lobby Day:
http://cmt-stl.org/transportation-day-a ... -set-2014/

americancitizen · PostJan 18, 2014#212014-01-18T01:20+00:00

jstriebel wrote:So with the points made by Alderman Ogilvie, is there serious interest here in forming an advocacy group to fill the gap. To organize pressure on our state representatives?

I don't really know how that starts, but I'm up for giving it a try. Thoughts?

I will qualify it up front that I am in no position to lead it, time and commitment wise, but I'd be down to participate & contribute if this was started.

rbeedee · PostJan 19, 2014#222014-01-19T20:20+00:00

A while ago, some people in St. Louis (I think one of them was Steve Patterson, but I could be wrong) started the Transit Riders Union of St. Louis. I haven't heard much recently about it, though, so it may be defunct.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 21, 2014#232014-01-21T22:00+00:00

Maybe one day downtown Saint Louis will look as busy as this:

Any guesses which city this is?

sirshankalot · PostJan 21, 2014#242014-01-21T22:16+00:00

Denver?

roger wyoming II · PostJan 21, 2014#252014-01-21T22:22+00:00

^ Not Denver. On the east coast, in a city with people wanting to get home ahead of the big snow.