The Triangle in the Grove

Construction activity, major renovations, office projects, etc. in the Central Corridor -- defined by the area south of Delmar Avenue and North of Interstate 44/55.
Hi All — see link below. Check out the marketing package and let me know your thoughts. New construction two-level building on the hard corner of Manchester/Vandeventer. Renovate/modernize the old auto building just off the hard corner. Across the street from Chroma.

http://www.l3corp.net/wordpress/wp-cont ... iangle.pdf

Thanks,
Kevin
Tricky piece of land.
Wish we hadn't thrown away this gem.....
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I like it. It's far better than just the old car repair shop. I like the shipping container office building as well but I think the office building could use another floor or two. 1800SF of office is small for this prime location. I would also add a few more windows to the development overall. But, I like it. Just wish the renderings were clearer.

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Not a fan of the design. Stark walls of black paneling with no decoration or sidewalk interaction don't seem quite right for what is essentially the front door of the neighborhood. It misses the opportunity to include anything interesting that could serve more of a placemaking purpose - like the fanciful dome in the photo Imran posted.

But that second floor would make for a really cool office space - and from inside you couldn't see the building, which would be a plus.
wabash wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:48 pm
Not a fan of the design. Stark walls of black paneling with no decoration or sidewalk interaction don't seem quite right for what is essentially the front door of the neighborhood. It misses the opportunity to include anything interesting that could serve more of a placemaking purpose - like the fanciful dome in the photo Imran posted.

But that second floor would make for a really cool office space - and from inside you couldn't see the building, which would be a plus.
I partially agree with you here and I boldened what I agree with. The street level needs to be addressed. Some more windows and some light landscaping would do the trick but the darker color is nice. Personally, I would love to see that parking lot go away in favor of a larger office/retail building floor plate. Add in some nice landscaping and it would make for a unique little place. As I said in my post above, "I think the office building could use another floor or two. 1800SF of office is small for this prime location". We don't need some thing too tall here but something tall enough to where other office tenants can enjoy the views that this location brings.

Any other things you would like to say design wise, contact Koman. I think they should listen to people to make them happy because Koman is doing a lot here in the Grove. But I wonder if Park Central will request changes when this is presented at their meeting?
Just Say No to shipping container "architecture".
^Conceptually I think good shipping container architecture can realize what Safdie was going for in Habitat '67. Oddly, it reminds me a bit of the Barton Phelps designed Sinquefield manse outside Folk. That's made of better materials than your average shipping container, but the odd arrangement of jutting bits at rakish angles and the general treatment of space and void are not completely dissimilar. Anyway . . . yes, I'd like to see something more interesting on that corner. And I don't see a lot of point to saving the garage when you could do a full lot building there. I'm a little surprised the proposal is that timid.
Good points....these renderings are conceptual at this point. I suspect the future tenant(s) will have a say in appearance/design.

Please keep in mind that adding a “couple floors” and “take away the parking lot and add GLA” is a lot more difficult than you think. A) Add a lot of cost to the development. B) is there demand for more office space than already proposed/under construction/readily available in the market. C) where will you park the office tenants and retail?
In the short term I like this project. It will bring energy and a trendy architecture style to a corner of town that is exploding. Later on down the road when the area is more built up and shipping containers aren't as cool, the two story building will be relatively easy to tear down for something better. Way better than a useless slab of asphalt.

Also I didn't know that Seoul Taco was moving into Chroma :P
kbshapiro wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:02 am
Good points....these renderings are conceptual at this point. I suspect the future tenant(s) will have a say in appearance/design.

Please keep in mind that adding a “couple floors” and “take away the parking lot and add GLA” is a lot more difficult than you think. A) Add a lot of cost to the development. B) is there demand for more office space than already proposed/under construction/readily available in the market. C) where will you park the office tenants and retail?
I love those armchair architect suggestions that don't incorporate major implications like cost and tenant needs. The people you want to please are the people paying for the project, and ultimately you. This is a challenging site and will need a lot of planning and considerations to be successful. They biggest hurdle I see is getting foot traffic to the site. That's a lot of lanes to cross if you're standing on the opposite side of the development. Unfortunately, traffic patterns and street layouts are very difficult to alter.
I really do appreciate the modern design and that you moved it to the corner with the parking behind. If this is built I'd be a fan... sure, there are probably more "idealistic" concepts or changes, but I think St. Louis needs to accept good development like this when it's presented. Not everything can be a 4 story, no parking building and this certainly is worlds better than a fast food joint, gas station, cvs, or strip mall.
^^For the record, I absolutely love that Barton Phelps structure that this reminds me of. That was meant as a compliment of the highest order. It's a good project. I'm just surprised you're keeping the garage, but if that makes the financing work . . . Modular architecture can be expanded later. That's one of the big advantages of working with standard sized steel boxes.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded critical.

(And to be absolutely fair, the guest residence side of Chez Rex is much more hum-drum and less daring. Good materials but standard apartment grade spaces. Not super-fancy. Even that, which had a serious FU budget and no concerns about little technical things like who would rent it, has a tame side.)

. . . Also, that interior parking lot could make a great courtyard or beer garden one of these days. When the parking is no longer a concern. Reuse will be easy and the spacing is perfect.
I should also clarify that I like the design of the two-story concept quite a bit. It's just the (apparent) use of shipping containers that I don't like. Built from scratch from the ground up with quality materials, the design could make a bold entrance statement to the Grove.
Aw, c'mon Framer. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Think of them as really large metal bricks that lock together unusually well. Legos for larger kids. Paint it terra cotta red. ;-)
^Sure...if they lasted as long as bricks.
Sign on site...

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This almost looks like a traffic nightmare to have that parking lot in the middle. Especially if it gets full. Car has to pull in, be flabbergasted, driver has to back out onto Vandeventer? Why on earth even include parking here?
^ yep. the more i see of this the more i absolutely hate it. what's the point in retaining the service station? if there absolutely has to be a parking lot, put it where the service station is, extend the container building to cover at least 2/3 of the site, and put the coffee shop/wine bar in the container building. then you only need one in/out curb cut on Hemp. renderings notwithstanding, who the hell is going to want to sit outside at this place wedged between 2 busy roads and a parking lot?
The site plan and renderings are, again, purely conceptual.

The auto building is staying put. There’s a lot of demand for these types of buildings and we’re getting a lot of interest from unique and exciting restaurant concepts.

The new construction building up on Vandeventer is phase II and will be built when a future TBD tenant comes to fruition. That tenant’s wants and needs will dictate how that phase will be built.

Nonetheless, we appreciate the feedback!
At this point, why would it even be detrimental to basically delete Hemp here? And turn it into a pedestrian walkway between the station and the building to the west?

Hemp basically has space for 7-10 whole spots. And isn't much of a useful thoroughfare.

I still think the idea of cramming a handful of spots between these two buildings sounds like a nightmare. Maybe you can wrangle validation at Chroma or something. I think something so much more well designed could take this front door to the neighborhood. Yes, I've been waiting for this for a loooong time, but perhaps we shouldn't bite on the first thing we see. With the way this area is being built up, I wouldn't be surprised if something more prominent comes along.
kbshapiro wrote: The site plan and renderings are, again, purely conceptual.

The auto building is staying put. There’s a lot of demand for these types of buildings and we’re getting a lot of interest from unique and exciting restaurant concepts.

The new construction building up on Vandeventer is phase II and will be built when a future TBD tenant comes to fruition. That tenant’s wants and needs will dictate how that phase will be built.

Nonetheless, we appreciate the feedback!
Well, while I think such a prominent corner could benefit from something a bit more decorative or even whimsical (examples below), I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts and involvement in bringing this property back to life. Best of luck with both the auto bays and any new build concept that comes to fruition - including if it's something similar to what you have envisioned in the rendering.

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