An end to the Western sprawl?

Discuss new retail, dining, business and residential projects within St. Charles County, including St. Charles, O'Fallon, St. Peters, Wentzville and more.
dylank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:46 am
The only award it should win is most racist, homophobic, uninteresting stretch of middle America.
Wow!
And not a good 'wow.'
I can imagine articles written about any number of StL County cities in days of yore. The sprawl ball keeps on bouncing.
That O'Fallon article is pretty good overall but it seems to have some flaws; particularly with a seeming failure to address the slower growth than in the past. Not just with percentage, which would be understandable, but also raw numbers. This is an issue not just for that city but for St. Chuck's County as a whole: in the 00's the County gained over 75,000 people but just an estimated 30,000 this decade through 2016. And as one of the individuals in the story illustrated, a lot of these folks going to the more western O'Fallons and Wentzvilles of the county are coming from elsewhere in the county.

Anyway, I think between the slow regional growth and more young people starting to look again at establishing roots in STL City and County, sprawl is still occurring for sure but not quite at the runaway pace it once did.
quincunx wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:21 pm
I can imagine articles written about any number of StL County cities in days of yore. The sprawl ball keeps on bouncing.
Good point and follow up by stlrainbow. It happens everywhere.

The city and county for that matter should continue to focus on the central corridor between downtown (presence of Nestle, Wells Fargo Secturity & new NGA facility) to CORTEX & institutions and Clayton CBD (Centene) to rebuild the jobs presence after some tough decades and the immediate housing & schooling needs. Whether it be rebuilding dense urban fabric desired by some, preserving the south city and county neighborhoods and clawing north city and county back. Things will work out if you concentrate on the brining back the jobs to core especially if you can bring jobs from outside and the fundamentals that make good neighborhoods
dylank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:46 am
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 03e0e.html

A cringy article touting O'Fallon's growth; West County's failure to attract young middle class families. "O'Fallon is a vibrant community." Ouch. The only award it should win is most racist, homophobic, uninteresting stretch of middle America. A contracting mecca mess. The skyline consists of water towers and Walmart trademarks. How lovely.

On another note, Warrenton is building further west with plans to reinvigorate a failed shopping center. A new interchange as promised by Modot!!
And this isn't a prejudiced, steretypical statement in itself?

I laugh at the irony of some our progressive friend's statements.
whitherSTL wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:58 am
dylank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:46 am
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 03e0e.html

A cringy article touting O'Fallon's growth; West County's failure to attract young middle class families. "O'Fallon is a vibrant community." Ouch. The only award it should win is most racist, homophobic, uninteresting stretch of middle America. A contracting mecca mess. The skyline consists of water towers and Walmart trademarks. How lovely.

On another note, Warrenton is building further west with plans to reinvigorate a failed shopping center. A new interchange as promised by Modot!!
And this isn't a prejudiced, steretypical statement in itself?

I laugh at the irony of some our progressive friend's statements.
You think O'Fallon is racist now just give it ten years when everyone from North County has moved to O'Fallon!

I can totally understand hating O'Fallon but you don't have to go and call everyone racist and homophobic. Interestingly, there was a post on this site a few days ago that declared most people in the City limits racist as well. There's just no end. It's an obsession.

I've never stepped foot in O'Fallon, MO and I would never live there personally. I'm sure it's dreadful. Except for the schools. And the crime.
dredger wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:06 pm

The city and county for that matter should continue to focus on the central corridor between downtown (presence of Nestle, Wells Fargo Secturity & new NGA facility) to CORTEX & institutions and Clayton CBD (Centene) to rebuild the jobs presence after some tough decades and the immediate housing & schooling needs. Whether it be rebuilding dense urban fabric desired by some, preserving the south city and county neighborhoods and clawing north city and county back. Things will work out if you concentrate on the brining back the jobs to core especially if you can bring jobs from outside and the fundamentals that make good neighborhoods.
yeah I'd have to say the population growth we're seeing in the Central Corridor is pretty impressive given rather lackluster jobs performance. There's been some jobs gains, but the residential growth seems to outpace what you'd might expect. If we had that pick up things would really get heated.
^Lots of people keep saying to concentrate on jobs, but it is abundantly clear that a large chunk of our region's corporate leadership has no interest in moving out of the exurbs/inside of the 270 ring. Maybe we should just focus on attracting and building vibrant people/areas in the city/inner county limits and they will do the work of creating new jobs/companies that lead us into our regions future.
^ Correct. Office and retail growth follow where the people live. Focus needs to be on population growth. The corporations and retail will quickly follow.
newstl2020 wrote:^Lots of people keep saying to concentrate on jobs, but it is abundantly clear that a large chunk of our region's corporate leadership has no interest in moving out of the exurbs/inside of the 270 ring. Maybe we should just focus on attracting and building vibrant people/areas in the city/inner county limits and they will do the work of creating new jobs/companies that lead us into our regions future.
Agree. I’ve been saying this for years. Jobs and retail follow people.


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kbshapiro wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:25 am
^ Correct. Office and retail growth follow where the people live. Focus needs to be on population growth. The corporations and retail will quickly follow.
It's true that office and retail growth follow where the people live but it also is just as true that people and retail follow where office goes. I think the emphasis in the article on MasterCard and Citi illustrates that nicely... there was no inherent reason why they left the County for O'Fallon but they did and apparently in large part b/c the county got outhustled. And what's going on in Detroit demonstrates this clearly as well.

I'll also point out again that our population growth and increasingly retail lately has been pretty darn impressive the last while in the Central Corridor, thousands of new apartments, new and rehab homes galore, BPV, Foundry, new entertainment destinations on top of thriving mainstays etc. etc. yet we hardly see any moves by companies from the west to east of 170. Almost everything wrt to jobs growth in the CC (including Clayton) is organic. I'm sure Clayton has picked up a few nice gains but nothing immediately comes to mind. For the City, Bull Moose to Grand Center (which I don't know where that timeline stands as that project seems to be taking forever) and AIA Pharma and AB Mauri to Cortex seem to be among the few moves of decent size. We just don't seem to have the corporate leadership/interest to join the back to the core movement that is more prevalent elsewhere.

Frankly, absent faster regional growth we're just not going to be able to grow our central and city population much more rapidly than we already are, so we absolutely need people to focus on good jobs (both supporting organic growth and attracting companies to the core through smart policies/incentives) in addition to making the core a pleasant place to live and visit.
"You've just graduated from *TOP RATED UNIVERSITY*! You can work in downtown Seattle, downtown New York, or Chesterfield."

"What's Chesterfield?"


Idiotically simplistic, yes, but I mean come on. I honestly don't think the vast majority of any future candidates wants to slave away in a suburban office park. Do current employees from 45-60? Maybe. I don't know. But why build a campus for 30 years into the future that will severely hinder your ability to attract top talent 7 years from now? The boomers are about to start retiring in waves and as national population trends have shown everyone younger than them is gravitating back towards the core of cities. These companies are willfully ignorant to the obvious preferences of their future employees.
^I don't entirely disagree with you, but there is a part of me that thinks local kids defy some of the national trends. My niece seems quite content in exurbia. She might yet surprise me. (She's a pretty neat lady.) But I don't see where she would necessarily shy away from a job in a suburban office park. (She surely likes her suburban super-regional malls.) So I think I'd say that local companies are perhaps too focused on local talent and local preferences. But saying that they are willfully ignorant of their future employees might be overstating things a tiny bit.

Besides, what company would, in its recruiting literature, mention Chesterfield? Does Boeing Defense recruit to Berkeley? Does Monsanto recruit to Creve Coeur? Or do they recruit to St. Louis and leave the rest of it in the fine print? (Maybe mentioning the "good schools" and "safe neighborhoods" crap somewhere after page three in their glossy brochures.)

Mind you, I dearly want to see more business in the city. I do. But I think attracting people might be both cheaper and more effective than simply dumping money into the corporate and commercial incentives trough. The city simply can't afford to beat the 'burbs at the incentives game every time. But there are real assets worth selling that the county cannot imitate; gorgeous old structures that cannot be replicated now at any price, and density and interest that simply aren't there anywhere else in the region. That might not sell much in the way of corporate offices directly, but it surely sells houses to the sorts of people that look for that kind of thing. And save the corporate incentives for companies from out of town, rather than those right across the border that probably have their peculiar local way of seeing things anyway. So long as the county keeps them happy that's more than good enough. (Or St. Charles county as the case may be. Tomato, tomato. Wait . . . )
symphonicpoet wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:48 am
^I don't entirely disagree with you, but there is a part of me that thinks local kids defy some of the national trends. My niece seems quite content in exurbia. She might yet surprise me. (She's a pretty neat lady.) But I don't see where she would necessarily shy away from a job in a suburban office park. (She surely likes her suburban super-regional malls.)
I don't really think young adults here are any/much different than elsewhere... we can trade anecdotes; the young couple with a baby on the way that bought the rehabbed house a few houses down from me grew up in the outer burbs. But the data show that there's been a big increase in the number of young educated people in the City and Central Corridor. Most people will continue to live outside it as with almost everywhere else but I don't think there's much question that the core is the center of energy for the educated young (who increasingly are also putting roots down and not just staying for a time). More companies need to wake up not just for the regional good but I think also for their own long-term health,
STLrainbow wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:50 am
symphonicpoet wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:48 am
^I don't entirely disagree with you, but there is a part of me that thinks local kids defy some of the national trends. My niece seems quite content in exurbia. She might yet surprise me. (She's a pretty neat lady.) But I don't see where she would necessarily shy away from a job in a suburban office park. (She surely likes her suburban super-regional malls.)
I don't really think young adults here are any/much different than elsewhere... we can trade anecdotes; the young couple with a baby on the way that bought the rehabbed house a few houses down from me grew up in the outer burbs. But the data show that there's been a big increase in the number of young educated people in the City and Central Corridor. Most people will continue to live outside it as with almost everywhere else but I don't think there's much question that the core is the center of energy for the educated young (who increasingly are also putting roots down and not just staying for a time). More companies need to wake up not just for the regional good but I think also for their own long-term health,
You can throw in anecdotes for myself and the wife. We've both turned down jobs out west due to traffic just not worth that commute. Especially with a tighter job market people can demand more from companies
For what it's worth, I talked my wife out of jobs in St. Wentzville and Weldon Springs for similar reasons. Instead she works five minutes away for now. I'm very much a city boy. I just think characterizing companies as . . . "willfully ignorant to the obvious preferences of their future employees" might be overstating the case. The preferences of some, surely. But not all. And how statistically true this is may be not obvious to everyone. Especially here. As I said, I don't disagree. I really don't. The city is the place to be. I've felt that way since I can remember. I was utterly gobsmacked when my family moved to the county in the 80s. Tore my heart. I've been trying to deny it happened ever since.
Are Americans Fleeing Cities for Suburbs? Not So Fast.
Jun 11, 2018

Basic comparisons of population growth rates don’t tell the whole story, and they misrepresent important questions about where people really want to live.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2018/06/ar ... st/562580/
^Gotta love the conlcusion: "If city population growth isn’t keeping pace with suburbs, its not because Americans are desirous of suburban living, but rather because we have a shortage of cities."
symphonicpoet wrote: ^
Besides, what company would, in its recruiting literature, mention Chesterfield? Does Boeing Defense recruit to Berkeley? Does Monsanto recruit to Creve Coeur? Or do they recruit to St. Louis and leave the rest of it in the fine print? (Maybe mentioning the "good schools" and "safe neighborhoods" crap somewhere after page three in their glossy brochures.)
I work for a smallish database company that has an office in Creve Coeur and one in Ft. Washington about half hour outside Philadelphia. I've noticed that while company brass refers to the office at 270 and Olive as "the St. Louis office" they refer to the one in the Philly burbs as "the Ft. Washington office".

Anecdotal I know but considering we always assume the fragmentation of STL is so much worse than other areas I just find that interesting.
^ I think so much of it is context in who you are talking too. I refer to my office as the Bay Area as people might or might not know San Rafael, CA nor or we located in San Francisco, Silicon Valley or wine country. Same with our location of our yard and fab shops located in the Delta as Rio Vista as example as is not your most well known California city or Jacksonville, FL area over Green Cove Springs which is not exactly a FL destination city either.

So I see a lot of people referencing St. Louis in general the same way I stated as such when I owned a house in Shrewsbury whenever I was talking with people not from St. Louis. Now, when talking with someone from St. Louis area or familiar with the area I would start talking Shrewsbury, Webster Groves school district and streets/neighborhoods.

As far as your top brass, I would take any town with the name Fort in it over a city any day whether it be Philly, St. Louis so on. Childish but being able to say I'm from Fort so and so is the boy in me saying that it is so cool.
Since we're on the topic, during my freshman year of college in Springfield, MO, I noticed that people from the STL metro area would say they're from St. Louis. Unless they were from, St. Charles. St. Peters kids were from STL but St. Charles kids were quick to correct you. But people from KC almost always said what suburb they were from, especially if they were from the Kansas side.
Forgive my naivety, but most of St. Louis county still has a mailing address of "St. Louis." Is this the case for other Metro areas too?
aprice wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:27 am
Forgive my naivety, but most of St. Louis county still has a mailing address of "St. Louis." Is this the case for other Metro areas too?
I think anything that's "631xx" has a "St. Louis" mailing address (or can have one).
If you write . . .

Joe Deutsch
4101 Deutschnamme Ave.
Heilige Ludwig, MO 63116-5559

It'll probably get there, so long as there's a Deutsschnamme Str. in the right ZIP. The machines might not even look at anything but the numbers at the end. With the final four I think they even bag it for the right mail carrier. No muss, no fuss. And then the poor sap humping your eBay sees your name, or your neighbor's name, or your ex-roomate's dead cat's name and boxes it right up for you. I used to think it made a difference what name you wrote on your checks too, but . . . I really don't anymore. It's all about the secret code numbers. (Which aren't really all that secret.)
southsidepride wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:32 am
symphonicpoet wrote: ^
Besides, what company would, in its recruiting literature, mention Chesterfield? Does Boeing Defense recruit to Berkeley? Does Monsanto recruit to Creve Coeur? Or do they recruit to St. Louis and leave the rest of it in the fine print? (Maybe mentioning the "good schools" and "safe neighborhoods" crap somewhere after page three in their glossy brochures.)
I work for a smallish database company that has an office in Creve Coeur and one in Ft. Washington about half hour outside Philadelphia. I've noticed that while company brass refers to the office at 270 and Olive as "the St. Louis office" they refer to the one in the Philly burbs as "the Ft. Washington office".

Anecdotal I know but considering we always assume the fragmentation of STL is so much worse than other areas I just find that interesting.
my office is also at 270/Olive, and all of our correspondence, office name, etc is St. Louis. Quite a few of our offices that are in suburbs of other cities go by the local jurisdiction, the "Kansas City" office is probably the worst, being the "Kansas" office. I have to explain to other offices/clients sometimes that it's actually the kansas city office, and not some far-flung office in the middle of kansas since we actually sometimes get contacted for kansas city, missouri work.

the general rule seems like inside and maybe just outside of 270 is "st. louis" except for maybe kirkwood...