Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

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dweebe
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:33 am

roger wyoming II wrote:So it looks like Richmond Hts. has put of the vote on the Menard's development for a few more weeks to get more info.... if this falls through again it wouldn't be the end of the world because the redevelopment potential of that area is so much greater. And maybe Menard's would go next to IKEA in midtown! Midtown - where we get Hadley's rejects!


I dunno. I say let them drop all the big box crap here along Hanley and leave the greater/better stuff for closer in to the city.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by roger wyoming II » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:46 am

dweebe wrote: I dunno. I say let them drop all the big box crap here along Hanley and leave the greater/better stuff for closer in to the city.


I was actually kidding about the Menards going to Midtown; I think big box is inappropriate for Hadley Twnshp as well as it is ripe for better development with the Metrolink nearby. In an ideal world, the Home Depot/McDonalds on the other side would also go away and that space redeveloped into TOD... its even better situated than Hadley. I did see a dad with a stroller wait to cross Hanley at Dale .... good luck with that!
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dredger » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:39 pm

Have to agree Roger, not only should Home Depot/McDonalds go away but also DESCO/Dierbergs (if got Dierbergs development arm correct) would level their site and exploit the site for TOD. Between the two sites Brentwood could literally add a few hundred units of market rate apartments/condos with great centrally located access.

I think Midtown is starting see development and success in part to varied develpments that are being embraced versus what central inner suburbs have embraced. I also believe PACE will be better off with mid town development as evolves. At end of day, Richmond Heights, Brentwoond and Maplewood are going to see a plateau on the sales tax revenue and stagnant population and demographics.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by roger wyoming II » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:43 pm

^ very mich agree. I think the Home Depot space would be a bit easier to do but an overhaul of the DESCO/Dierberg's would be great.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:15 am

Let's not ignore the elephant in the room: the area being developed for the Menards is/was the "roughest" part of Richmond Heights and is/was predominantly African-American. I'm not going all old-school like former poster Doug and cry racism; but I can't help to think that removing a mostly black neighborhood is seen by some in the RH government as a added bonus.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by DogtownBnR » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:54 am

Supposedly, many of those properties are delinquent on their taxes. Many properties are already abandoned. The developer offered double or more than property value. I know it looks that way, but the area is what it is. Run-down, unkept and not generating property taxes. I feel for the people in the area that do keep up with their homes. The others (not including the elderly, disabled..etc) are the reason the locals want the hood bulldozed. It looks like a mini-ghetto. That is just being honest, not judgemental.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by roger wyoming II » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:09 pm

^ Isn't a major reason for the present conditions the fact that this area became a marked neighborhood once the first serious proposals began over a decade ago? Once a neighborhood is marked for redevelopment homeowners can't sell on the private market and its all but certain the neighborhood will deteriorate with time. My understanding is that while this was not the wealthiest neighborhood pre- redevelopment talk, it was far from a mini-ghetto. All I can say is that it would really, really suck/bite to own a home there.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by DogtownBnR » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:22 pm

From what I've seen, in passing, over the last decade, it did get worse, once development plans came about. I'm referring to the current condition of the area. I'm just saying, it is too far gone and the holdouts should jump at the chance to get out. Who'd want to live in the middle of a retail area? (even if I had lived there for decades)

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by roger wyoming II » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:25 pm

^ gotcha.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by goat314 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:13 pm

dweebe wrote:Let's not ignore the elephant in the room: the area being developed for the Menards is/was the "roughest" part of Richmond Heights and is/was predominantly African-American. I'm not going all old-school like former poster Doug and cry racism; but I can't help to think that removing a mostly black neighborhood is seen by some in the RH government as a added bonus.


The "roughest" part of Richmond Heights?
As somebody that has family in this area I find that comment pretty offensive. This area is not rough by most standards, unless you consider working class African Americans a "rough" group of people. Were not talking about Pine Lawn or Kinloch here.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:21 pm

roger wyoming II wrote:^ Isn't a major reason for the present conditions the fact that this area became a marked neighborhood once the first serious proposals began over a decade ago? Once a neighborhood is marked for redevelopment homeowners can't sell on the private market and its all but certain the neighborhood will deteriorate with time.


You are right: once the WalMart/Lowes/Sams were proposed years ago, this area was "dead meat".

roger wyoming II wrote:^ My understanding is that while this was not the wealthiest neighborhood pre- redevelopment talk, it was far from a mini-ghetto. All I can say is that it would really, really suck/bite to own a home there.


I wouldn't call it a mini-ghetto, but there are a number of houses that still have iron bars on the windows and doors along with metal cages surrounding A/C units.

Plus I know someone that started his law enforcement career with Richmond Heights. Being politically correct he'd call the Hadley area "active". Then again he also said all the false house alarms at the mansions in the area between Clayton and 40/64 were more work.
Last edited by dweebe on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:31 pm

goat314 wrote:
dweebe wrote:Let's not ignore the elephant in the room: the area being developed for the Menards is/was the "roughest" part of Richmond Heights and is/was predominantly African-American. I'm not going all old-school like former poster Doug and cry racism; but I can't help to think that removing a mostly black neighborhood is seen by some in the RH government as a added bonus.


The "roughest" part of Richmond Heights?
As somebody that has family in this area I find that comment pretty offensive. This area is not rough by most standards, unless you consider working class African Americans a "rough" group of people. Were not talking about Pine Lawn or Kinloch here.


I didn't mean to offend. As someone who lived as a kid in a trailer park that was knicknamed "Trash Town" I certainly know what it's like.

Just when there's houses costing $1+ million a 1/2 mile to the north in the same medium sized suburb, it's all a relative scale.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by goat314 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:49 pm

dweebe wrote:
goat314 wrote:
dweebe wrote:Let's not ignore the elephant in the room: the area being developed for the Menards is/was the "roughest" part of Richmond Heights and is/was predominantly African-American. I'm not going all old-school like former poster Doug and cry racism; but I can't help to think that removing a mostly black neighborhood is seen by some in the RH government as a added bonus.


The "roughest" part of Richmond Heights?
As somebody that has family in this area I find that comment pretty offensive. This area is not rough by most standards, unless you consider working class African Americans a "rough" group of people. Were not talking about Pine Lawn or Kinloch here.


I didn't mean to offend. As someone who lived as a kid in a trailer park that was knicknamed "Trash Town" I certainly know what it's like.

Just when there's houses costing $1+ million a 1/2 mile to the north in the same medium sized suburb, it's all a relative scale.


I understand. There is just often a misleading stereotype that all or even most black communities are crime ridden, ghettos. Contrary to popular belief, most Black St. Louisans are at least working class and live in relatively stable communities.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by Alex Ihnen » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:57 am

^ I loved the old proposal for an MLS stadium at the site. Figure there's zero chance it comes back though.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by DogtownBnR » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:25 am

^Agree! That was, by far, the best option. Unfortunately, I don't think the group behind the proposal, had the money or clout to get it done. I think STL will need to get an MLS stadium soon or this dream could be dead. MLS can only expand so much and cities are lining up to get a team. I think soccer in the US is finally taking off. (Sorry to get too far off subject)

My "mini-ghetto" comment was a bit overstated. The area is run down, for the most part. The houses have seen better days. The area will be surrounded by a sea of retail soon. I would not want to live there. If I could get out, for what was allegedly offered, I would jump. The comment was not a reflection on the people. I do not know them or the area that well. I have driven through and looked at the homes. MANY are no maintained much at all and would not even pass an inspection. Therefore, the area has seen better days and is prime for a redo. This conversation and issue would not likely be nearly as controversial, if this were not a historically AA community. Then again, if this area looked like the areas to the east, off Big Bend, the developers would not likely be able to afford to buy out all of the residents. This may not even be happening.

Whatever goes in there, in the second phase, I hope it is not the same old-same old retailers that are common all over STL. I hope they bring in something unique. IKEA was a perfect fit there, but I like it better in Midtown, so it is a win-win.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by framer » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:34 pm


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Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by moorlander » Tue May 27, 2014 4:26 pm

There has been a lot of change over the past few weeks.

Much of the neighborhood and buildings have been razed and debris has been removed from the site.

Across from Home Depot three red brick out buildings are built right up to Hanley. I know Chipotle will be occupy one of them. just south of those will be yet another gas station. You guessed it, yet another Quick Trip.

This stretch of Hanley is just the worst. There is no way this crap gets build like this if not for it being in three separate Muni's. Brentwood and Maplewood have their home improvement store and now Richmond Heights wants their piece.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Tue May 27, 2014 4:57 pm

moorlander wrote:There has been a lot of change over the past few weeks.

Much of the neighborhood and buildings have been razed and debris has been removed from the site.

Across from Home Depot three red brick out buildings are built right up to Hanley. I know Chipotle will be occupy one of them. just south of those will be yet another gas station. You guessed it, yet another Quick Trip.

This stretch of Hanley is just the worst. There is no way this crap gets build like this if not for it being in three separate Muni's. Brentwood and Maplewood have their home improvement store and now Richmond Heights wants their piece.


Even worse they just flattened everything and didn't even attempt to save a single tree.

But you are right, having this stretch in 3 different municipalities didn't help at all. Plus the fact that the area was primarily African America with lower housing values made it easy for developers to come in and destroy. I'll guarantee nobody would think in a million years of taking out the neighborhoods on the north side of the 40/64 and Hanley intersection.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by roger wyoming II » Tue May 27, 2014 5:05 pm

^ Seems like as that Home Depot ages out in Brentwood it would be a nice site for mixed-use TOD.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dweebe » Tue May 27, 2014 5:44 pm

moorlander wrote:This stretch of Hanley is just the worst.


Let's also not forget that 20 years ago, before all this stuff was built, this part of Hanley (as well as Eager Road) was even uglier than it is now. Yes, I'm saying it: big box store/crap strip plazas actually improved an area. Strike me down with lightning and ban me from the forum, but let's not fool ourselves about what the Hanley and Eager area used to be like.
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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by dredger » Tue May 27, 2014 6:16 pm

^ I would give half credit on the fact that everything west of Hanley was an industrial area anchored by a concrete batch plant if correct. Everything east of Hanley, even though it had ugly commercial frontage, was solid working classing neighborhood behind it. Yes, you got rid of some tough industrial but also bulldozed a number of neighborhoods to make a Menards, Walmart, Sam's Club and a Lowe's to happen for the sake of sales tax dollars (For which a big chunk is going back to the respective developers) and retail jobs without taking advantage of two metrolink stations built on each end.

I honestly believe Richmond Heights/Brentwood/Maplewood/Shrewsbury will lost out to the Central Corridor, if not already, in the long run. Between Clayton CBD and Downtown is where you are seeing an influx of development for housing and well paying jobs that will encourage increased as well as sustain demographics and population.

You would think, hope, and pray that Brentwood would encourage a TOD development if Home Depot store shutters due to new competition, first to a new Lowe's a few years ago and now a new Menards. Someone has to lose out when you bulldoze homes, lose population in the immediate area if note mistaken, but add retail. Second, I'm still amaze that Dierbergs still makes a go of it on the other side of the Brentwood Metrolink station. Their must be some committed shoppers considering the grocery options surrounding it. Unfortunately, I don't see Brentwood pushing for a coherent plan in the foreseeable future for the metrolink station. It doesn't help that you had three different developers build isolated footprints along with a metro garage as built simply puts up a huge wall next to Home Depot.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by goat314 » Tue May 27, 2014 6:39 pm

Developments like this show why planning and incentives have to be done at the county level. Communities like Brentwood, Richmond Heights and Maplewood are not capable of preparing for the future. In fact, I'm seeing better planning in direction from the 24:1 cities in North County. There is a reason zoning and planning in the Washington DC area are done at the county level, it made the development of Metro and TOD possible.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by Gateway City » Tue May 27, 2014 7:54 pm

Why are these even three cities still? Wasn't there a proposal a few years ago for Clayton to absorb most or all of these? Everyone I know calls everything from the Maplewood Station all the way to Forest Park Parkway Brentwood anyway.

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by nickfindley » Tue May 27, 2014 10:22 pm

So Home Depot will probably be gone soon. That store is getting a little old. When do they get their TIF to build a new one, and will it be in Rock Hill or Shrewsbury?

Also LOL at potential TOD at the eventually former Home Depot spot. Brentwood, Maplewood, and Richmond Heights are all masters of squandering every inherent advantage they have and still turning a profit. For that spot, I'd put my money on... a new Dierberg's?

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Re: Hadley Township Development - Richmond Heights

Unread post by STLEnginerd » Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am

Let's also not forget that 20 years ago, before all this stuff was built, this part of Hanley (as well as Eager Road) was even uglier than it is now. Yes, I'm saying it: big box store/crap strip plazas actually improved an area. Strike me down with lightning and ban me from the forum, but let's not fool ourselves about what the Hanley and Eager area used to be like.


Good point. It may seem obvious in retrospect but its only fair to ackknowledge that Home Depot was built there sometime before 1997. Target was built before 2000. Dierbergs before 2002 and BestBuy and Walmart sometime around 2004. Metrolink station by comparison was open for business around 2008.

With the link you can view historic aerials using the layers setting.
http://maps.stlouisco.com/propertyview/

Additionally the dense mixed use development (Houlihans, Spring Hill Suites) at Strassner I think shows a willingness to move to a more TOD template. They are just stuck with legacy decisions made when metrolink was less than certain.

Secondly its no wonder the development there is auto oriented considering its at the intersection of two interstates.

So Home Depot will probably be gone soon. That store is getting a little old. When do they get their TIF to build a new one, and will it be in Rock Hill or Shrewsbury?



I doubt it. The building may be older but its in decent shape. Based on my unscientific observation Home Depot draws more business than Lowe's (probably a visibility and access thing) so I doubt they are ready to cede the market share to Menards without a fight. Most likely if they do decide they need to update to compete it seems most likely they will rebuild in place. I'd expect Lowe's to go permanently dark before Home Depot. That said TOD might make more sense there anyway. Its also very close to an underutilized metrolink station and well designed TOD would mean the people living there wouldn't have to fight through Hanley traffic to get to work in Clayton, or the City.
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