Better Together...or not

Discuss new retail, dining, business and residential projects within St. Louis County, including Chesterfield, Riverport, Earth City, Westport and more.
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dbInSouthCity
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by dbInSouthCity » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:20 pm

olvidarte wrote:Agreed Moorlander.

I think the "we'll lose our identity" argument is just a cover for "we'll lose our autonomy/fiefdom" or something similar....small minds, not looking at the bigger picture....I think the "we'll lose our identity" argument is designed to pull on the heartstrings and manipulate.

Something else that strikes me about the comments above is It's not ok to get rid of places like Kirkwood, etc. but it is okay to erase lesser know municipalities? Who makes the determination of what community measures up and who doesn't? It's way too subjective.

Just make everybody a district, ward, neighborhood, whatever. You won't lose the flavor and character of your favorite place and we'll gain the benefits of being a unified region.


Yes get rid of places like crestwood, shrewberry, everything in north co expect Hazelwood and Florissant (those two can split up NoCo between the two


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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by MarkHaversham » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:23 pm

moorlander wrote:Lose their identity like Soulard, Central West End, La Square, and St. Louis Hills? C'mon. Neighborhoods or wards can still have their identity and some type of community group running things.

It does seem like a pretty flawed argument.

Kirkwood already contracts police to Oakland, and the pool is jointly paid for with Glendale and Oakland. It really seems like there's room for some consolidation without losing much the way of identity or whatever, even if you aren't keen to replace municipal councils with wards and neighborhood groups.
dbInSouthCity wrote:
moorlander wrote:Lose their identity like Soulard, Central West End, La Square, and St. Louis Hills? C'mon. Neighborhoods or wards can still have their identity and some type of community group running things.

Apples and Oranges. Those were never independent cities.

Carondelet, then.

dbInSouthCity wrote:Yes get rid of places like crestwood, shrewberry, everything in north co expect Hazelwood and Florissant (those two can split up NoCo between the two

Consolidate based on school district, that's half the identity people are so fond of anyway.

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Thu May 05, 2016 10:45 am

The ballot box may be the only way to secure change

Call - Judge throws out new countywide police standards

http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles- ... dards.html

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by bprop » Thu May 05, 2016 11:36 am

dbInSouthCity wrote:
Yes get rid of places like crestwood, shrewberry, everything in north co expect Hazelwood and Florissant (those two can split up NoCo between the two



:roll:

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Thu May 05, 2016 8:14 pm

The ballot box may be our only hope.

STL Public Radio - Judge says St. Louis County can't set police standards for municipalities

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/jud ... cipalities


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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Fri May 06, 2016 8:19 am

I'll be presenting "Unite St. Louis" Wed May 11 6 pm hosted by Better Together in the tall building across from the Galleria. Be there!

https://nextstl.com/2016/05/unite-st-louis-may-11-6-pm/

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by shadrach » Fri May 06, 2016 2:57 pm

Yesterday I attended the symposium "Inside the Business of St. Louis Sports" sponsored by Anders CPA and the St. Louis Sports Commission. Panelists included Jim Kavanaugh (WWT), Chris Zimmerman (Blues), Frank Viverito (SLSC), Ron Waterman (Cardinals) several sportscasters from local media and guest speakers Olympian Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Dave Peacock.

Obviously, a lot of the discussion was around Scottrade improvements, efforts to land an MLS team and a recap of the Rams saga. Interestingly, the continual thread, and brought up during the Q&A sessions, was not sports, but City and County merger/re-entry.

When asked, Dave Peacock said the number one priority is that the County needs to fix its problems. Too many municipalities, too many court systems, too many codes, a weak County Executive office and County Councils with too little, if no, power. After that, other options like reentry or beyond can be considered. For a good 20 minutes, it felt like a 'Better Together symposium' than a 'Sports Commission' symposium. I was glad this topic dominated the discussion.

Interesting how this topic is top of mind and dominating almost every facet and industry in the region.

I feel the revolution is coming!
Seek the peace and prosperity of the city, pray for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper. Jeremiah 29:7

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gary kreie
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by gary kreie » Fri May 06, 2016 7:55 pm

Good. It seems obvious that we at missing a full layer of governance at the regional level. And missing out on great regional leaders such as Dave Peacock as a result.


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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Wed May 11, 2016 9:38 am

Didn't realize the disncorporation reforms in HB 1632 made it into SB 572. Hope it passes the house

STL Public Radio - Day 2 of Missouri legislature's last week: Municipal reform, fantasy sports, body cameras

Schmitt's bill would also make it easier for cities to disincorporate. As of now, state law only allows a disincorporation election in villages and fourth class cities. And even in those places, proponents of dissolution would need to gather signatures from 50 percent of registered voters – which is basically impossible in larger cities.

Senate Bill 572 would allow third class cities and charter cities to have disincorporation elections. It also lowers the signature percentage threshold from 50 percent to 25 percent. And it decreases the percentage of votes needed to dissolve a city from 60 percent to a simple majority.


http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/day ... dy-cameras

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by DogtownBnR » Wed May 11, 2016 10:00 am


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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Thu May 12, 2016 5:41 pm

!!!!!!!

Jason Rosenbaum ‏@jrosenbaum
Sequel to SB5 passes by a 98-46 margin. Not veto proof, but I would be surprised if @GovJayNixon vetoed it.

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Fri May 13, 2016 8:15 am

StL Public Radio - Missouri legislature adds restrictions on municipalities, changes tax sharing

“I’m very happy about it because it puts it back in the hands of the people,” said state Rep. Bob Burns, D-St. Louis County. “If they're upset or concerned or don't care for their municipality or city they live in, it gives them the opportunity to disincorporate.”


http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/mis ... ax-sharing

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Sun May 15, 2016 12:21 pm

What do you think Metcalfe means here? Is he just talking about the process of exacting change?

StlToday - Arch's inspiration • Let's promote another competition that finds ways for us to live and work together.

Better Together has shown the expensive folly of our public structure: It costs $750 million more to run St. Louis City and County — with their police, fire and school districts — than it does to run unified metropolitan Louisville or metropolitan Indianapolis. Based on per capita numbers, a St. Louis family of four pays more than $7,600 per year for local government services — 44 percent more than what the same family would pay in Indianapolis.

Imagine what a shot in the arm it would be for our region if we could take the $750 million that is lost on duplication and fragmentation and spend it on something needed and useful.

Another prime example of how we’re squandering scarce resources is tax increment financing. TIFs stimulate beggar-thy-neighbor retail competition. They don’t generate any real economic growth.

The city of Maryland Heights is getting ready to give someone we all know — Stan Kroenke — a lot of public money to build another shopping center. Why? Not because of population growth or any lack of retail nearby. What makes this all the more shameful is that he aims to invade a needed flood plain to put up stores that no one needs.

In sum, we are structurally polarized and collectively stupid. How should we go about reimagining St. Louis?

First, we start with a new approach and stop clinging to the old. No more talk of reunification or city-county merger as the cure-all. People don’t believe it or want it.

Why not have a design competition with big, clear goals to capture some or all of the money lost on obsolete processes and duplication and put it to work in education, public safety, transportation, or parks or reduce taxes? Let’s encourage our civic leadership and universities to form competing design teams and shoot for the stars with people, not structure, at the center.

We must use the countless tools and platforms of social media to share regional data and evidence and engage the next generations.

St. Louis should not wait until the 22nd Century to begin to use 21st Century tools in finding new ways to work and live together.


http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/re ... c5465.html

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by urban_dilettante » Sun May 15, 2016 2:32 pm

^ it's absolute nonsense. "Instead of the obvious solution that's been shown to work elsewhere, let's hold some sort of vague, magic design contest because I oppose reunification on principle!"
Last edited by urban_dilettante on Sun May 15, 2016 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by STLEnginerd » Sun May 15, 2016 2:32 pm

A design competition sounds like a terrific way to get absolutely nowhere.

If there are better ideas out there I'm sure we've heard them. It's not rocket science. There are to many governments and not enough efficiency of scale. To hold out hope that there is some third way between the status quo and incremental or wholesale consolidation is just silly. And really after this magical idea is "designed" who takes the dot to implement it. I'm sure the seas will part and there won't be any opposition to resist implementation of the miriclesolution some one will design.

:roll:

The simple fact is we either make moves to consolidate public services or we stay as we are and continue to pay too much for too little. How and how far we move to consolidate is going to be dependent on old fashion public engagement.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by urban_dilettante » Sun May 15, 2016 2:36 pm

^ and what the f*ck is going to be "designed" to capture all this wasted money if not a new government structure?

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Sun May 15, 2016 4:18 pm

From last Sunday May 8. Mayor Slay talks fragmentation starting at 5:35

http://fox2now.com/2016/05/08/hancock-k ... s-indiana/

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by dbInSouthCity » Sun May 15, 2016 4:28 pm

He is right about merger & unification. People don't want it. As much as we want it here we are a small small very small minority. So when you have that situation, it's a waste of time to try to move someone from Hell No to yes, much easier to bring them to the middle

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Sun May 15, 2016 5:37 pm

What I don't understand is that the goals he wants to achieve imply merger & unification. How else "to capture some or all of the money lost on obsolete processes and duplication"

What does a middle ground look like?

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by urban_dilettante » Sun May 15, 2016 7:59 pm

dbInSouthCity wrote:He is right about merger & unification. People don't want it. As much as we want it here we are a small small very small minority. So when you have that situation, it's a waste of time to try to move someone from Hell No to yes, much easier to bring them to the middle


it doesn't matter whether or not people want it. there's no other way to do it. setting up "collaborations" is just going to shift the cost of redundant services to extraneous administration of various collaborations. it's better to keep whittling away at the "Hell No's" than waste time and resources on some design contest to nowhere.

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by goat314 » Sun May 15, 2016 8:02 pm

^ I think I'm one of the few that believes that city/county government reform will come via state ballot initiative. This idea has been bounced around before. Something like "St. Louis is a out of control, their inept big government needs to be reigned in, its costing the whole state millions, Ferguson was a big government problem etc." Only way to fix the St. Louis mess if for "outstate" to "fix " St. Louis...All of this funded by Mr. Rex.

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by hebeters2 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:33 pm

Journalists Arrested In Ferguson Barred From Talking About Settlement
But St. Louis County police will be trained on freedom of the press and constitutional rights.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jou ... aa781ae513

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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by Ebsy » Wed May 18, 2016 3:44 am

I'm guessing they got big payouts that would embarrass the department.

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Sun May 22, 2016 9:27 am

90 -> 89?

Stl Public Radio - Five things to know about the proposed consolidation of Vinita Park and Vinita Terrace

On Tuesday, the St. Louis Boundary Commission will, for the first time in its 25 years, take public testimony on a proposed consolidation.


http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/fiv ... ta-terrace

This could be said often:

The consolidation would give Vinita Terrace residents "new professional, full-time local services simply by combining with a larger municipality that has full-time public works, clerk, financial and other full-time paid staff," the application said.

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quincunx
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Re: Better Together...or not

Unread post by quincunx » Wed May 25, 2016 9:15 pm

StL Public Radio - St. Louis Boundary Commission hears strong support for merger of Vinita Park, Terrace

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st- ... rk-terrace


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