Lubeley's Bakery closing after 80 years

New and changing stores, restaurants, and businesses in the City of St. Louis
Sad to see a long time STL business close. At least they are closing for personal reasons. Based upon the state of this stretch of Watson Rd. is this area prime for a large scale demo and rebuild? I hate strip malls as much as anyone, but this area is starting to look like a wild west ghost town with all of the vacancies. I know it is also a tough sell with the seedy Route 66 motels across the street, but there has to be something that would work to rebuild this area. The same issue exists to a lesser extent at Gravois and Mackenzie, where the aging strip malls are in need of tenants. I know they are redoing the strip malls near that intersection, but it still needs work. For such busy roads and intersections, I think local government could do better with these stretches. Any ideas???

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 73c29.html
DogtownBnR wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:30 pm
Sad to see a long time STL business close. At least they are closing for personal reasons. Based upon the state of this stretch of Watson Rd. is this area prime for a large scale demo and rebuild? I hate strip malls as much as anyone, but this area is starting to look like a wild west ghost town with all of the vacancies. I know it is also a tough sell with the seedy Route 66 motels across the street, but there has to be something that would work to rebuild this area. The same issue exists to a lesser extent at Gravois and Mackenzie, where the aging strip malls are in need of tenants. I know they are redoing the strip malls near that intersection, but it still needs work. For such busy roads and intersections, I think local government could do better with these stretches. Any ideas???

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 73c29.html
But the ~$20M TIF and CIDs of Kenrick Plaza, we were led to believe by PGAV consultants, were to be the spark that "ignited the corridor." Seriously, that's what they said.

They also said that stretch of Watson is "undergrocered."
It seems like they don't even have much of a concrete plan in place for the Crestwood Mall redevelopment, let alone the rest of Watson Rd, which I agree is getting really sad and doesn't get as much attention as the mall. Drive down Watson on a weeknight...very little traffic. I'm not sure what that area can do but it needs to reinvent itself. They have a great school district (Lindbergh) and lots of inexpensive housing. Not many suburban areas have both of those features.
BTW rumor is that Rothman is going to close too. And Mackenzie Pointe is sporting about 40% vacancy. Quite a renaissance from Walmart moving in, eh?
I have firmly believed that Rothman serves as a front for drug running and/or the mob for years. Impossible for them to have stayed open otherwise.
I've seen maybe two cars in the Rothman parking lot in as many months. And yes, that stretch of Watson is . . . depressing. Also . . . houses in the area are not staying so cheap. The prices keep going up. Every new house listed in my mom's neighborhood sells for more than the last. There's one (a largish, but with neither garage nor driveway) going for a half million now. Not sure if they'll get it . . . but the last one, a more typical story and a half affair of about fourteen or fifteen hundred square feet, went for about a quarter. My mother has been having heart palpitations thinking about the next tax assessment. I just don't know how it's sustained with vanishing retail and rock bottom real estate taxes. (Mom is still paying about half what I pay on a house that's now valued at probably twice mine. Though it is, to be fair, slightly smaller. Still.) Something's got to give.
symphonicpoet wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:22 am
I've seen maybe two cars in the Rothman parking lot in as many months. And yes, that stretch of Watson is . . . depressing. Also . . . houses in the area are not staying so cheap. The prices keep going up. Every new house listed in my mom's neighborhood sells for more than the last. There's one (a largish, but with neither garage nor driveway) going for a half million now. Not sure if they'll get it . . . but the last one, a more typical story and a half affair of about fourteen or fifteen hundred square feet, went for about a quarter. My mother has been having heart palpitations thinking about the next tax assessment. I just don't know how it's sustained with vanishing retail and rock bottom real estate taxes. (Mom is still paying about half what I pay on a house that's now valued at probably twice mine. Though it is, to be fair, slightly smaller. Still.) Something's got to give.
Can understand the housing prices. Formerly resided in Shrewsbury that was within the Webster Groves School District boundaries. Their is some really nice establish single residential neighborhoods with mature trees/canopies tucked away with parks, services, and quick drives to a lot of regions pluses whether it be Forest Park/Zoo or Grand Center or Busch Stadium/Scottrade, etc.. On top of it, my wife used to work in ATT One Center and would love to have her commute from Shrewsbury to downtown back in those days.
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Understood the political short term mentality/push for Walmart for the all glorious hope to regain sales tax dollar but what a loss opportunity to build more housing, thus increase the property tax base, along the corridor that lost its retail prime years ago. It was nice having Dierbergs and the post office nearby but think we went to Rothman's once maybe twice at tops just about as many times going to the other grocer, believe it was SuperValue for that area that didn't have enough grocery stores when Walmart was built..

Like you said, something needs to give with older fixed incomes that get the property protection but retail & sales taxes becoming more consolidated. Always thought Shrewsbury & the small community at the wedge of Watson Rd & Lacledes Road being incorporated into Webster Groves as an eloquent solution...
Heck, property values are skyrocketing in Lindenwood Park and St. Louis Hills right up Watson and they are in a terrible school district!
I'm mostly surprised property taxes have risen so little in certain parts of South County. I'm not too shocked that the sale prices are going up. There's a lot to sell houses out there, even though it's not what I would choose. But the present combination of low taxes and high services is unsustainable. And it's starting to show as services deteriorate in places. There's more potholes all the time, for instance. And municipalities are beginning to talk about consolidating services or eliminating them altogether and contracting them out. You'll see it in police and fire departments first, but I can't imagine schools will follow too far behind. The place is too dispersed and too reliant on sales taxes that have gone and won't come back. The real question is whether people will work to increase density or raise property taxes before it's too late. The resistance to either of these is . . . epic. And budgets are absurdly tight right now.
I know you have one data point, but I think most people in that are do not find their property taxes low at all. When I got my property tax bills in the county, I'd always look at my neighbors' bills up and down there was always one anomalous one that would drop by 25% when everyone else's went up 10%.

If you look at the County rate book in that area, tax rates are in the 9.3 cents per $100 assessed range (looks like 9.0 through 10.3 cents or so) and the rate in the City is 8.38 cents per $100 assessed. Both are 19% of appraised for residential, so I'm not sure where you're getting that rates are low.
As has been noted elsewhere, Rothman's is closing all of their stores.

I expect much of the current retail acreage along Watson will soon go residential.
framer wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:21 am
As has been noted elsewhere, Rothman's is closing all of their stores.

I expect much of the current retail acreage along Watson will soon go residential.
According to the P-D article, the Watson location is already under contract. No details.
bprop wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:34 am
I know you have one data point, but I think most people in that are do not find their property taxes low at all. When I got my property tax bills in the county, I'd always look at my neighbors' bills up and down there was always one anomalous one that would drop by 25% when everyone else's went up 10%.

If you look at the County rate book in that area, tax rates are in the 9.3 cents per $100 assessed range (looks like 9.0 through 10.3 cents or so) and the rate in the City is 8.38 cents per $100 assessed. Both are 19% of appraised for residential, so I'm not sure where you're getting that rates are low.
Crestwood. And yes, it's anecdotal, but it's not one data point. I looked at homes there before I bought in the city. And my parents own a home there. As did my grandparents before them. Not sure about rates or assessments, just actual taxes levied as reported on real estate websites. And I've at least a ballpark guess at the actual value of homes in the two areas. Crestwood has remarkably low property tax rates compared to other county municipalities. It's been a factor in the merger fight for years. Actually, decades at this point. Since Eugene McNary was in office, at least. I also looked a little down in Lemay and up in a few places in North County, but it's Crestwood that stuck in my head since there were two places there that we got more serious about. And I'm at least partially privy to the family finances, so there's also that. Almost got serious about one in U. City, but it sold so fast we didn't get to think about it much. And the property tax thing has been a family bone of contention, so we've . . . looked at it. I have an aunt in Webster that's always a little jealous of Crestwood property taxes. That's been a point of discussion for decades as well. So yes, it's anecdotal, but no, it's not one data point.

Haven't made a careful study of it. How closely do typical county assessments compare to typical sale prices? I know the assessed value of my home is well below both what I pad for it and what it's ostensibly worth. Why that's the case, I'm not quite sure. It was my impression, at least, that this was by design. How do typical county assessments work?
(Further, I'm well aware people in the area don't find their property taxes low. They are, as it happens, wrong in my opinion.)
symphonicpoet wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:22 pm
Haven't made a careful study of it. How closely do typical county assessments compare to typical sale prices? I know the assessed value of my home is well below both what I pad for it and what it's ostensibly worth. Why that's the case, I'm not quite sure. It was my impression, at least, that this was by design. How do typical county assessments work?
County assessments supposedly use comparable sales nearby. They list the four or five (I think) nearby sales on which your house is evaluated. I would say as an overall average they approximate sale value, with local variations and wacky results (hence the appeal process). This is the only technique used in the County, and one of two used in the City. I don't see significant differences in the outcomes based on homes I've owned. Of course there are local blips and anomalies.

Re: Crestwood tax rates, you're right that they're lower in places, but it depends on which school district (WGSD or Lindbergh) and a few other minor differences. It ranges from 7.25 to 8.63 cents per $100. Again, the rate in the City is 8.38 cents $100.

I guess the question when someone talks about property taxes being low (or high), the question is "low (or high) compared to what?" Since many compare the County and its municipalities to St. Louis City, I was comparing those. By that measure, most municipalities in that area have a slightly higher tax rates than the city, while Crestwood's is anywhere from 16% lower to 3% higher than the City.