http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... sc&start=0





The old MSD site may be part of the answer. see above thread

Brentwood/Richmond Heights area is a nightmare to get around now with highway and side road construction. I refuse to shop there now, if those retail outlets in the Promenade and Galleria row wish to have my business they need to open up locations in the city. Midtown and the near south side have some ideal locations in which they could locate

Mid-County has truly taken advantage of the city's retail starvation. Richmond Heights, Maplewood, and Brentwood, primarily, have sold their souls to the retail devil, if you will. Richmond Heights is demolishing an entire (historic black) neighborhood for a new shopping center, while Maplewood allowed that neighboring horrific Wal-Mart development at the foot of a new Metrolink stop. There is no planning, only intermunicipal competition for sales tax revenue.



Now, I think this may present a great opportunity for the city to distinguish itself by NOT building big boxes at all. I know, I know. Bring on the attacks. But, seriously, the argument that the city should welcome big boxes with open arms sounds reminiscent of urban renewal days when it was assumed that bringing single-family ranch homes or “garden apartments” to the city was an answer to the Post-War housing situation. The city needs to be aggressive in obtaining independent retail and, when necessary, small or mid-sized, mixed use boxes.



As I’ve said before on previous posts, the city does have a crisis as far as retail is concerned; there is barely any. Restaurants are plentiful, but shopping outlets are few and far in between. My major worry is that if Best Buy and (gulp) Wal-Mart expressed interest in a city location, the powers that be would offer half of Soulard as a site for the new development (see Lougborough Commons and its shiny Lowe’s as the precedent). They would probably get TIFs to develop as well, on top of other subsidies, and would present a physical, suburban scar to a city that truly needs no more wounds to its urban fabric.



The real crisis is the lack of local retail. When we talk of reemerging streets in St. Louis (Manchester, Morganford, etc.) we see a boom in places to dine, but not so much in places to shop. There are so few stores that I can walk into in the city of St. Louis and feel like I’m buying something that is unique to this city—it’s really crippling. Plus, local stores funnel local money back into the city in which they’re situated. In the days of globalization and fierce competition for jobs and the middle class between cities, are we really going to attract anyone back to the city with a shiny new big box Wal-Mart that’s receiving subsidies? Is it really smart to lay the keys to the city at the feet of corporate giants whose revenue does not even ultimately stay in our economy?



I would like to see a policy that encourages small and local businesses (which provide an overwhelming majority of the jobs in this country) to start up and take a risk in our profound and beautiful commercial corridors, some of which decay and are slowly lost by the day (MLK, N. Broadway, S. Broadway in Carondelet/the Patch). “Big” boxes would be welcome, even with subsidies, as long as the little guy gets them too. And of course, big boxes should not be able to demolish a whole block or more of homes and choose an anti-pedestrian, anti-urban site plan that will permanently damage the urban environment of the city. Sensitive urban design that attends to parking needs would be in order, as would some sort of form-based code that would permanently eliminate the threat of overbearing boxes.

^ agreed, there should be a ban of suburban style strip malls in the city limits.

Retail square footage per person in the U.S. has gone up something like 300% in the past few decades. The city may not have shared in the incrase as much as mid-county, but it seems like retail is out of balance overall with residents no matter where you are. Would it be better from a crash-proof standpoint to focus on residents and scattered smaller retail rather than retail mega-projects?

goat314 wrote:^ agreed, there should be a ban of suburban style strip malls in the city limits.

For the most part, such layouts seem damaging to neighborhoods. But I'd disagree on a "complete ban," as there are a few pockets like Hampton/44 where such development could fill the desperate void for tax base and retail options without impacting adjacent neighborhoods. If the City ever went to form-based codes, there would be limited areas where auto-oriented development would be okay, but most areas would preserve their more pedestrian-oriented patterns with context-sensitive infill and redevelopment.

What are you needing that can't be found in the city? Maybe we can help you find it.

Home Depot store on Hanley Road, even though the Kingshighway store is just as close. I asked why. He said that if HD doesn't have what he needs, all he has to do is drive down the street to Lowe's, Wal-Mart

I heard from someone who works at HD, that the South Kingshighway store makes the most money out of their STL locations! shows of a lot of rehab going on in the city!



I agree, the city should NOT subsidize big box retail again in the city. I HOPE they learned from St. Louis Marketplace. I don't mind it if they want to do it on their own on Hampton/44, but I think FEW other areas would be OK for this type of development. I think it would be AWFUL for Forest Park/ Grand area. The LAST thing STL CIty needs is to try to emulate Manchester and 141, it won't win that way.

I personally prefer the numorous smaller hardware stores, clothiers, discount stores, boutiques, misc retailers found throughout the inner city of STL.

landscaping supplier

Try Bayers on Hampton and Bowood Farms Nursery in the CWE

I think that rather than focusing on category killers that do not currently exist in the City it is more constructive to consider what the city does have. With few exceptions you can find much of what is considered lacking at smaller locally owned businesses. Keep in mind that with these, if they close it is often because their business has been killed off by exactly the stores you seek. These are the types of businesses that give the city and its respective neighborhood their character.

To respond to the list of what we need, here is my humble list of big-box alternative (apologies to Target-S. Hampton, Home Depot, Office Depot & Max, Petsmart & Macy’s & J.C. Penney, all happily operating within the city limits)

Appliance Store: Slyman Brothers, of course we no longer have Mizzerany’s, but who can forget their location-“we’re not next to the Bevo Mill, the Bevo Mill is next to us!”

Furniture-Oh, come on! Just downtown you have Goodworks, English Living, Niche, Atom, UMA Dotspot, Mossa, we even have some furniture at Salt of the Earth! John Beck is still making furniture in midtown, then there is Centro and Design Within Reach in the CWE, not to mention Rothschild’s. Then there is Cherokee Street & South Broadway for antiques, etc.

Moving down the list, for carpet & tile (flooring?) Lawson Brothers & European Tile & Marble. We lost the granddaddy of them all at Hampton & the Manchester bridge with the closure of Ceramic Tile Services.

Sporting Goods, well I know of a bike shop on Arsenal, there was an article about a running store, and who can forget Paul’s Bait & Tackle for all your fishing needs? In the phone book is also Olympic Sporting Goods on Hampton, and Weissman’s Dance Supply.

Books-Left Bank Books-if they don’t have it, they will order it for you-one of the few remaining independent booksellers, a wonderful resource.

Landscaping, in addition to Bayers and Bowood, there is Colors of Spring, all the folks on LaSalle St and Glueck on N. Broadway. There are other places under building material for stone, etc listed in the y-pages.

Home Entertainment & Electronics/computers-well you are stuck with the offerings of Target & the Office stores here.

All in all, not a bad list, especially considering that the inner ring of suburbs pretty much has the rest.

So, what does the city have? In addition to the places mentioned above. Ethnic food markets in their respective neighborhoods (the Hill, South Grand, Bevo), a number of independent retailers new and established some already listed (Hanneke Hardware, New Market, House of Phideau, Johnny Brock’s, Soulard Market, Skif, etc.) Some great, interesting shopping neighborhoods. The great thing about discovering some of these places is that when you do you feel like you are wiser than those who settle for the plain vanilla of the big boxes and the malls. You also get great service and an appreciative retailer.

Went to Napperville Illinois over the weekend. What a great downtown they have. A great mix of local mom and pop shops mixed in with national retailiers like Barnes and Noble, Restoration Hardware and Williams Sonoma. Had many indy shops and non-chain restaurants and parking garages tucked off the main street.



many of the buildings were new construction mixed in with original structures with complementing facades.



This is what downtown and other higher density neighborhoods need. national retailers can drive up sales to other businesses. People don't have to drive out to the county and while visiting a chain they can go into the mom and pops.

www.naperville.net/downtown

JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:Went to Naperville Illinois over the weekend. What a great downtown they have. A great mix of local mom and pop shops mixed in with national retailers like Barnes and Noble, Restoration Hardware and Williams Sonoma. Had many indy shops and non-chain restaurants and parking garages tucked off the main street.



many of the buildings were new construction mixed in with original structures with complementing facades.



This is what downtown and other higher density neighborhoods need. national retailers can drive up sales to other businesses. People don't have to drive out to the county and while visiting a chain they can go into the mom and pops.

www.naperville.net/downtown

Those kinds of things don't happen by accident. There are usually a lot of people planning ahead and working very hard at writing up zoning codes and business association by laws, etc. to make that happen. I'm not super familiar with Chicago, but I believe Naperville is a pretty upscale suburb. I can see a Gap and Williams-Sonoma going into Clayton or Kirkwood someday alongside Spencer's Grill and MacArthur's Bakery. That would seem more of an equivalent than downtown or a neighborhood business district in the city.

I disagree. Even if downtown doesn't see this idea as a focus then areas like the Central West End need some national presence. I am not saying make it over run but some would be a great balance. Like to see a Barnes and Noble in the Euclid Walk.

JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:I disagree. Even if downtown doesn't see this idea as a focus then areas like the Central West End need some national presence. I am not saying make it over run but some would be a great balance. Like to see a Barnes and Noble in the Euclid Walk.

Why in the world would you wish to kill the one or two remaining local bookstores by plopping in a faceless corp giant? I just cannot groke yoour mindset.

^ I agree. B&N or Borders needs to go downtown before going into the CWE. Downtown there's no Left Bank Books for it to take business from.

People that go to Left Bank will still go to Left Bank and those that already go to Borders and Barnes and Noble will still go to Left Bank. I don't wish to see Left Bank disappear either. They have done what it takes to survive this long.



With that said, my point is that a vibrant neighborhood or downtown can support local and national retailers.



My point was not to destroy a neighboorhood favorite but to bring in more options.