JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:People that go to Left Bank will still go to Left Bank and those that already go to Borders and Barnes and Noble will still go to Left Bank. I don't wish to see Left Bank disappear either. They have done what it takes to survive this long.
With that said, my point is that a vibrant neighborhood or downtown can support local and national retailers.
My point was not to destroy a neighboorhood favorite but to bring in more options.
That is naive. The bricks and morter bookstore business is practically dead. If you want to kill Left Banks books the sure way is to bring in B & N.
I saw the death of a local in my neighborhod this week, felled by a corp giant. Sqwires has shut down its deli & coffe counter. When Starbucks went in they lost 20%+ of their business.
JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:People that go to Left Bank will still go to Left Bank and those that already go to Borders and Barnes and Noble will still go to Left Bank. I don't wish to see Left Bank disappear either. They have done what it takes to survive this long.
With that said, my point is that a vibrant neighborhood or downtown can support local and national retailers.
My point was not to destroy a neighboorhood favorite but to bring in more options.
That is naive. The bricks and morter bookstore business is practically dead. If you want to kill Left Banks books the sure way is to bring in B & N.
I saw the death of a local in my neighborhod this week, felled by a corp giant. Sqwires has shut down its deli & coffe counter. When Starbucks went in they lost 20%+ of their business.
Sure, if you let a Barnes & Noble or a Borders open on the same block as Left Bank, you're putting a piranha in the goldfish tank.
But the two stores could co-exist--- especially in different parts of the city. A book seller downtown or in St Louis Hills would have little effect on Left Bank. Having both stores in the city would at least give residents a choice, which is something we're currently lacking.
If I had my choice in my own fantasy land, we would have the choice between large local retailers and small local book stores--no corporate giants involved.
Austin, Texas has established IBIZ districts via its Austin Independent Business Alliance. These are whole commercial strips or blocks supported by the city of Austin's Small Business Development Department. They host special festivals and foster a spirit of nuanced local flavor.
I would love to see institutional support for local businesses in a city that would gladly offer a TIF district to any big box and its favorite outparcel denizens: Qdoba, Starbucks, Great Clips, etc.
The playing field needs to be leveled. If St. Louis needs more options, big corporate boxes needn't be the alternative.
When someone in the CWE,downtown, or other part of the city needs a paper, magazine, or book it is unrealistic to say they will always go to Left Bank. I bet it's safe to say that shoppers do occasionally go to Borders or Barnes and Noble from the city. So next time you go to Borders or Barnes and Noble you are driving into the county and spending gas money and taking tax money away from the city and not supporting your local stores. The point is that one place does not meet all your shopping needs. You can support your locals and still shop national retailers.
I would also like to see a Trader Joe's come to the city. Another great location for that would also be Euclid Walk.
JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:People that go to Left Bank will still go to Left Bank and those that already go to Borders and Barnes and Noble will still go to Left Bank. I don't wish to see Left Bank disappear either. They have done what it takes to survive this long.
With that said, my point is that a vibrant neighborhood or downtown can support local and national retailers.
My point was not to destroy a neighboorhood favorite but to bring in more options.
That is naive. The bricks and morter bookstore business is practically dead. If you want to kill Left Banks books the sure way is to bring in B & N.
I saw the death of a local in my neighborhod this week, felled by a corp giant. Sqwires has shut down its deli & coffe counter. When Starbucks went in they lost 20%+ of their business.
Sure, if you let a Barnes & Noble or a Borders open on the same block as Left Bank, you're putting a piranha in the goldfish tank.
But the two stores could co-exist--- especially in different parts of the city. A book seller downtown or in St Louis Hills would have little effect on Left Bank. Having both stores in the city would at least give residents a choice, which is something we're currently lacking.
Isn't there a B&N or Borders on Euclid across from the Metro and Applebee's?
That is naive. The bricks and morter bookstore business is practically dead. If you want to kill Left Banks books the sure way is to bring in B & N.
I saw the death of a local in my neighborhod this week, felled by a corp giant. Sqwires has shut down its deli & coffe counter. When Starbucks went in they lost 20%+ of their business.
Sure, if you let a Barnes & Noble or a Borders open on the same block as Left Bank, you're putting a piranha in the goldfish tank.
But the two stores could co-exist--- especially in different parts of the city. A book seller downtown or in St Louis Hills would have little effect on Left Bank. Having both stores in the city would at least give residents a choice, which is something we're currently lacking.
Isn't there a B&N or Borders on Euclid across from the Metro and Applebee's?
That is naive. The bricks and morter bookstore business is practically dead. If you want to kill Left Banks books the sure way is to bring in B & N.
I saw the death of a local in my neighborhod this week, felled by a corp giant. Sqwires has shut down its deli & coffe counter. When Starbucks went in they lost 20%+ of their business.
Sure, if you let a Barnes & Noble or a Borders open on the same block as Left Bank, you're putting a piranha in the goldfish tank.
But the two stores could co-exist--- especially in different parts of the city. A book seller downtown or in St Louis Hills would have little effect on Left Bank. Having both stores in the city would at least give residents a choice, which is something we're currently lacking.
Isn't there a B&N or Borders on Euclid across from the Metro and Applebee's?
A small one. I think that is also the WashU bookstore, or was at one time.
Sure, if you let a Barnes & Noble or a Borders open on the same block as Left Bank, you're putting a piranha in the goldfish tank.
But the two stores could co-exist--- especially in different parts of the city. A book seller downtown or in St Louis Hills would have little effect on Left Bank. Having both stores in the city would at least give residents a choice, which is something we're currently lacking.
Isn't there a B&N or Borders on Euclid across from the Metro and Applebee's?
It's not a full size one.
Thanks, I thought I had seen one there after leaving the Metro stop.
Doesn't a Starbucks also co-exist with Coffee Cartel in Maryland Plaza? See, sometimes the big boys CAN play nice with the little guys!
Bottom line....the city of St Louis should welcome virtually all retail with open arms. If we get into the habit of picking and choosing which stores we want and which we don't, we're really just limiting our own choices.
JeremyPivenlovesme wrote:When someone in the CWE,downtown, or other part of the city needs a paper, magazine, or book it is unrealistic to say they will always go to Left Bank. I bet it's safe to say that shoppers do occasionally go to Borders or Barnes and Noble from the city.
Do they skip Left Bank to specifically go to Barnes and Borders or do they go to Barnes and Borders more because they already happen to be out in the area where B & B is at the time doing other things? I can't see many folks, especially who are already in the CWE, skipping Left Bank just to go all the way out to a B & B, especially to just get a paper or magazine.
Anyway, considering the CWE already has a major bookstore, there are lots of other types of stores it could use (local or national) besides another bookstore that is just going to compete with what is already there. It would be more beneficial to add something that isn't already offered as opposed to sending in something which will compete with a preexisting business.
As for Squires/Starbucks/Park Avenue, just because Park Avenue survives doesn't mean Squires wasn't killed in part by Starbucks. That area may have been able to support two shops, but not three (there's always a limit), thus perhaps one of them not surviving when Starbucks moved in.
citysoul wrote:Doesn't a Starbucks also co-exist with Coffee Cartel in Maryland Plaza? See, sometimes the big boys CAN play nice with the little guys!
I look at neighborhood commercial business districts differently than most I think. To me they are historic and rare and in need of preserving. I'm fine with Borders or Trader Joe's going into the CWE, but not on Euclid. They can find a spot on Lindell and still succeed. The chains aren't in need of local foot traffic to survive. They have reputations that draw in customers.
citysoul wrote:Bottom line....the city of St Louis should welcome virtually all retail with open arms. If we get into the habit of picking and choosing which stores we want and which we don't, we're really just limiting our own choices.
We are constantly picking and choosing who comes in all over the city and county. Otherwise we'd all be overrun with check cashing and pay day loan businesses.
It's also a way for different areas to have a unique feel. An area can choose to be a shopping district or an entertainment district or a family friendly district or a gay friendly district. Otherwise all of the local districts could fall under the Anywhere, USA feel of most strip centers. Imagine if the Loop was full of Noodles and Co and Jimmy Johns and Starbucks and Verizon stores.
In cities that value their own history, heritage, and culture, local businesses are more likely to succeed. In St. Louis, where shoppers and diners are almost always equipped with cars, it is quite easy to remain fearful of the unpredictability of non-formula restaurants and retail and to go where the experience and quality (and parking ease) is known and deemed acceptable.
The whole local/independent business lobby is not some group of parochial wackos. It's often a group of people who recognize the inherent threat to urbanity that chains/non-independents pose.
That is the threat of the "knowable", the scientific space and place. This is what caused the failure of high-rise housing projects, of late garden suburbs, and of any engineered space. It is created with the thought that human behavior and use of space is ultimately controllable: deterministic design. Often, it involves an insensitivity to the user's demands of the space. For example, "open space" was seen as a must-have for urban inner city residents whose children played on streets prior to the "renewal" (demolition) of their old neighborhoods.
At that time, though, the residents of the block had a sense of ownership over the street and were more vigilant of their playing children, despite the concrete playground they were forced to use. In superblocks, the complex sense of place was extinguished with the belief that people would view the greenspace in front of their home in much the same way as they viewed their former home on their former street.
In short, the complexity of all of the elements of urban space and how people relate to it were ignored.
With the advent of suburbia came also deindustrialization and accelerated commercialization. The fast food model became a convenient solution to increasingly busy lives, which were increasingly being lived in auto-oriented formats that separated commerce from residence.
These commercial plots, due to land limitations (since they could no longer be put on every corner), had to be shoved onto major roads. The parcels grew larger and larger as traffic engineers and real estate experts discovered that all these cars passing by appreciated an abundance of parking and a one-stop shopping experience. As the parcels grew larger, smaller entrepreneurs were more and more excluded from business start ups.
An auto-oriented, suburbanized culture got very comfortable with "efficiency" and less comfortable with something that potentially risked a waste of their precious time and money. Chains and formulas satisfied both needs: they minimized costs of service and sped up delivery time to a public that no longer required intangible benefits like an pleasing aesthetic environment, presence of pedestrians, people-watching, personalized service, an intimate scale.
Civically, and physically, that urban, intimate scale was seen as claustrophobic and outmoded. Worse, a culture of insulation and privatization began to look disdainfully upon the unpredictability of urban environments, that controlled chaos that Jane Jacobs spoke of.
With a return to cities and an appreciation for meaninful environments and public spaces, it's a wonder that some cities simply don't mind offering a fully privatized (and, to over-generalize, suburban) experience.
You can arrive alone in your car, often park right in front of these establishments (or not get out of the car at all, in the case of fast food), walk in, know exactly what you want and what you're going to get, walk back to your car, all having interacted with a minimal number of people and with no surprises at all.
Yes, people do get familiar with their local establishments, but often do so only because they feel it reflects their city or neighborhood's identity and welcomes them.
The notion of the non-localized, dependent formula store or restaurant (and especially those suburban-style establishments) is antithetical to "traditional" urbanity.
The Home Depot on Kingshighway was built without TIF and is their best store in the metro area. In fact Southtown had one of the other chain hardwares (since bankrupted) lined up Home Depot was able to come is faster without subsidy and elbow the Southtown store out.
krykel wrote:I would LOVE to see a Trader Joe's come into the city limits. I think an awesome spot would be South Jefferson.
Chivvis discussed the possibility of attracting one to Chouteau's Landing on their website back in April.
I'd love to see it, Personally. I don't know whether they were just gauging interest or if they'd already been in contact with TJ's about a possible location.