Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

southslider · PostJun 21, 2005#612005-06-21T17:44+00:00

If it should be thought of as "a chain of lakes" stretching from Forest Park and the Missouri Botanical Garden towards Downtown, not just within Downtown.

Just as in Forest Park, there are a chain of lakes stretching from the Art Museum throughout the park to the Science Center, and certainly the Grand Basin is striking.

Similarly, I think that Chouteau Lake in Downtown can likewise be striking, even if it has a chain of other bodies of water to its west in the planned linear greenway.

trent · PostJun 23, 2005#622005-06-23T00:29+00:00

I always thought the plan was for a chain of lakes with one central lake that started at the ball park, and headed westward going well past 14th street bridge.

smsplanstu · PostJun 23, 2005#632005-06-23T03:08+00:00

How about a Ziggarat, but the famous Hanging Gardens from ancient Mesopotamia? Wouldn't that be cool! Lush terraced gardens several stories high overlooking the Chouteau Lake. Just a fun thought I have pondered today.

jcity · PostJun 24, 2005#642005-06-24T03:02+00:00

I'm sorry, but a "chain of lakes" sounds cute and precious, and it does look GREAT in Forest Park, but it's too small scale for me. We should be thinking bigger. We should have an area vibrant with aquatic activity, a place that can command high end prices for waterfront property. Think about it, NOTHING in St. Louis County, St. Charles County, etc. could compete with it. Just having a stream with a few picnic tables along side it isn't going to be that big of a draw. I'm sure people might say it's "too large scale" and "we should just be happy with whatever we can get". But, come on, we've got to think bigger.

MattnSTL · PostJun 24, 2005#652005-06-24T03:39+00:00

We don't actually know what we are getting, so I'm not sure if we can acurately criticize yet. I personally want a large central lake, with a system of smaller lakes and a stream coming off of it.

smsplanstu · PostNov 03, 2005#662005-11-03T05:48+00:00

This is a VERY important project that Richard Baron (my second favorite role model after Dr. MLK Jr.) is spear heading. I hope it is still moving forward and that banks are financing it and that other developers are joining the bandwagon to make this happen while the public waits in anticipation. I hope Mayor Slay is pushing the lake and development since it along with others can be the highlight of his administration.

southslider · PostNov 03, 2005#672005-11-03T14:49+00:00

It is moving forward, fastest in Downtown where property acquisition near the new stadium has occurred, but dealing with the railroads in this greenway corridor remain the biggest question mark as to how quickly this project will advance.

stlcityrocks · PostNov 07, 2005#682005-11-07T21:48+00:00

Thanks for the info Southslider. I live in Lafayette Square and occasionally hear the whistling trains in the distance. I hope the railroad companies negotiatiate fairly so this project can move forward quickly.

smsplanstu · PostNov 30, 2005#692005-11-30T19:51+00:00

If Chouteau Pond once existed and was fed from springs, then naturally the springs should be reconnected to the lake.

The P-D did a story five years ago when this project first made headlines about a major spring that used to create the pond being located underneath the Central Library.

The aquifers in the zone of aeration underneath downtown St. Louis obviously need to be detected, mapped, studied, and reconnected to the pond/lake. Need Meteroic water (fresh circulating water in the open spaces in the rock subsurface) not connate groundwater (entraped brackish water found in the open spaces in the rocks).

debaliviere · PostNov 30, 2005#702005-11-30T20:04+00:00

^

You lost me after the second paragraph.

framer · PostDec 01, 2005#712005-12-01T07:01+00:00

I love meteroic water.

smsplanstu · PostDec 01, 2005#722005-12-01T19:19+00:00

Geologic explanation of how Chouteau Lake should be fed by the natural environment

The water should come from Unconfined groundwater since this is a humid climate. Springs are the natural emission of groundwater at the ground surface and form streams that would flow into the lake. Springs are commonly located in the

Zone of Aeration (Vadose Zone): Is the area above the water table NOT saturated with water and filled primarily with air

jambo · PostJan 29, 2006#732006-01-29T18:28+00:00

The Urban Review - St. Louis web site has a link to the Urban Land Institute (ULI) Chouteau Lake/Greenway design competition. The ULI site has a QT MOV video that is well produced showing a historical "vignette" of the lake/pond area and the proposed developments for the Greenway et al.

I only wish that we could access a better quality video file.

check it out.

loulou · PostJan 30, 2006#742006-01-30T00:15+00:00

Of all the projects happening in the city, this one is my favorite. The video isn't the greatest, but below are some links from the ULI site which give a fairly good feel for the lake/greenway project as a whole. Apologies if they're repeats from earlier posts.

Just curious: The first link appears to show a finger of Chouteau Lake reaching up through the Cupples complex. And there's another lane of water extending all the way down to Chouteau St., about where 16th street would be. Anybody know exactly what's planned? Thanks.

Interesting to see a revamped 22nd street in there as well...

Overview

City Greenways

Grand Blvd Area

smsplanstu · PostJan 30, 2006#752006-01-30T03:36+00:00

Ga ga

I'm drooling at the luxuriness of this project to have a pond and central high quality park linking Downtown to almost Forest Park. Forest Park South East neighborhood looks like a crossroads of Metro/bike paths/walk/skating paths which could make it a great bicycle neighborhood? I can only imagine the possibilities with Lafayette Square, Gate District, and Bohemian Hill new development that should be urban design and not suburban.

Talk about sexy real estate, this park/waterways/greenways should make central St. Louis hop

Politicians make this work

bikinʹ_man · PostJan 30, 2006#762006-01-30T05:01+00:00

biking, obviously, is the most imoortant thing to me in making this city work again. i was in denver over winter break, let me tell you, that is a biking city. every street has a bike lane, not to mention their own version of this very project that goes to the fouthest south suburb. that is an odd place, the sprawling city in the country with a metro area about the size of ours with a population about half. it's nice there. i like it, but it's still not st. louis. it's always home.

urbanstlouis · PostJan 31, 2006#772006-01-31T17:21+00:00

Jambo wrote:The Urban Review - St. Louis web site has a link to the Urban Land Institute (ULI) Chouteau Lake/Greenway design competition. The ULI site has a QT MOV video that is well produced showing a historical "vignette" of the lake/pond area and the proposed developments for the Greenway et al.

Since the http://www.chouteaulakedistrict.com website by McCormick Baron and Associates hasn't been online for sometime, it looks like while the Gerald D. Hines Student Urban Design Competition is taking place, the http://www.udcompetition.uli.org website is a good source of information on the Chouteau Greenway Plan. There are images of the Greenway Proposal at Midtown as well as how the entire greenway will link downtown with Forest Park as well as Tower Grove Park.

Link: http://www.udcompetition.uli.org/

mbow76 · PostJan 31, 2006#782006-01-31T17:30+00:00

Very cool. Thanks for the link. If this - http://www.udcompetition.uli.org/images ... ayPlan.pdf - ever gets finalized and completed it will be quite an improvement over the current view as you drive along the highway.

trent · PostJan 31, 2006#792006-01-31T20:52+00:00

I'd still like to see this project even more ambitious. More green, and residential along Chouteau.

xing · PostJan 31, 2006#802006-01-31T22:00+00:00

I dont see how the lake can be a success from what I see in this image. The freeway blocks the north, Parina to the south, and Tucker on the west. It seems isolated. Then it seems they included railroads that they can't relocate, which creates a greater wall.

bastiat · PostJan 31, 2006#812006-01-31T22:54+00:00

Xing wrote:I dont see how the lake can be a success from what I see in this image. The freeway blocks the north, Parina to the south, and Tucker on the west. It seems isolated. Then it seems they included railroads that they can't relocate, which creates a greater wall.

I sort of agree. They really need to move the railroads somewhere else. If they are going to do a project this big, they might as well go all out. I really think they should make the big lake at least go from 8th to 14th, if not 17th (or long enough that crew races can take place on it). This string of office park lakes isn't going to cut it.

loulou · PostFeb 01, 2006#822006-02-01T00:39+00:00

Moving the railroads is much easier said than done, especially in this part of town. The rail line through this area is a vital link to the MacArthur Bridge as well as to the section of the line that travels north through the Arch grounds and past the Landing.

I think the most important thing is to make the lakeside itself attractive, especially the part next to Cupples and the new ballpark.

jefferson · PostFeb 01, 2006#832006-02-01T01:03+00:00

Xing wrote:I dont see how the lake can be a success from what I see in this image. The freeway blocks the north, Parina to the south, and Tucker on the west. It seems isolated. Then it seems they included railroads that they can't relocate, which creates a greater wall.

I think we need to define what "success" means for this project. If you're imagining it being lined with residential buildings and businesses, then the barriers you mentioned above will probably keep it from happening. It will be much nicer than an old railyard and will provide a beautiful and easy bike connection between forest park and downtown. That will be all the success I need.

xing · PostFeb 01, 2006#842006-02-01T01:51+00:00

Yes, but there are so many parks in St Louis with freeways along side them, large avenues keeping people away, and other barriers. Just look at the arch grounds above. They're spending a lot of money just to connect a piece of it to downtown. Why not fix the problem before it's created?

jefferson · PostFeb 01, 2006#852006-02-01T02:13+00:00

ok I understand what you mean. I'm just looking at it primarily as a beautification project and a bike corridor, neither of which depends on people being able to filter in and out of it along the edges.

The archgrounds, however, were never envisioned as providing transportation from one place to another, and therefore it might've been forseen that it would suffer from a lack of pedestrian connections.

If this gets built, on a nice day I would expect to see a level of activity similar to the joggers/bikers at forest park, which I would say is considered a success. I think more people will cross under the freeway than you think, once they see what's there.

Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

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