Are you for or against a City / County Merger?
It's not even remotely close to socialism, and the fact that it was even brought up is laughable at best.
Besides, the City/County merger would simply make St. Louis apart of the County, therefore making it another municipality in the county.
Besides, the City/County merger would simply make St. Louis apart of the County, therefore making it another municipality in the county.
Urban Elitist wrote:
Uh actually it would be smaller government since uniting all of these municipalities would allow for elimination of redundencies...thereby creating an overall smaller government(read:less employees, less red tape, leaner...
I disagree with the socialism assertion too. However, I believe again that
(a) many people like having a feeling of control over city services, and that is much more difficult with a large geographic area and a much greater population and
(b) if you actually ARE talking about combining government via a merger (it's hard to tell), then the unfortunate fact is that bloat and waste *tends to* creep in when there is larger government. I feel that the City has been doing a better job with responding to citizens, but whenever I had to deal with City Hall, it was a nightmare because of the bureaucracy. Friends who live in the city (and love it, btw) hate having to go to City Hall for anything. Whenever I have to e.g. get a building permit, pay a fee, get a copy of ordinances, or whatever, it's usually about a 5 minute task.
Again personally, I feel that my government over a city of about 6500 or so, is very responsive and efficient, dollar for dollar. The ticketing policies of the police department notwithstanding, I don't believe that combining citizen-facing services would benefit me or my neighbors.
^ It makes you wonder if we could go about this in a different way. Spliting the metro down into small small communities that can control local government combined with certian core areas, insititutions, and departments controled at a regional level. Imagine no St. Louis City or COunty, only a regional body with a metro wide tax base and say direct control of downtown and clayton. The rest of the metro split off into its small municipalities. You never know...
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I voted yes because instinct tells me it's right but one factor that hasn't really been put out there yet: the seat of the county currently being Clayton. Even if the city becomes another municipality in the county, how would this work out, one of the major points of this merger being to consolidate administration for the sake of efficiency and cost saving.
And although I think the terminology of his post was extreme, take it easy on the Curmudgeon. If viewed in terms of Ronald Reagan which is what his quote brought directly to my mind, I think his point is that more centralized control, not overall larger size but a larger central unit, doesn't always equal more efficiency. While I agree with that idea on a national level, I disagree on something of this scale, but just saying although extremely stated, his point isn't that "out there."
And although I think the terminology of his post was extreme, take it easy on the Curmudgeon. If viewed in terms of Ronald Reagan which is what his quote brought directly to my mind, I think his point is that more centralized control, not overall larger size but a larger central unit, doesn't always equal more efficiency. While I agree with that idea on a national level, I disagree on something of this scale, but just saying although extremely stated, his point isn't that "out there."
Some people, especially those in Ladue and Chesterfield (my parents included) seem to think if all of a sudden there was a city/county merger all the "thugs" from north city (trying to empathize with their Points of View) will all of a sudden be coming out to their homes and all of a sudden things will change...
St. Louis County has its own fair share of economically down-trodden areas as well as the City having plenty of working class, middle class and upper class areas.
What are the direct benefits and negative consequences of a possible merger? What are the stereotypes/reasons that people are against the merger. Why are people for the merger.
We need to get these ideas/thoughts out in a clear and decisive manner to go any further in this discussion.
St. Louis County has its own fair share of economically down-trodden areas as well as the City having plenty of working class, middle class and upper class areas.
What are the direct benefits and negative consequences of a possible merger? What are the stereotypes/reasons that people are against the merger. Why are people for the merger.
We need to get these ideas/thoughts out in a clear and decisive manner to go any further in this discussion.
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The Curmudgeon wrote:Bigger government does not = better government.
Why should the people of Kirkwood, Des Peres, Richmond Heights, Clayton, Ladue, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera ....have to suffer to "improve" the standards of others.
You are talking Socialism. Sorry, you can take that dirty dishwater and throw it out with Mike Schoedel
I can give you many reasons but I will give only one------
Morally it is the right thing to do. Morally you should strive to improve the standards and/or life of others!
And how can you say that the mentioned cities would "suffer"? That's an embellishment don't you think?
You have got to be kidding, right? You're approaching a merger as a moral issue? I can't tell if you're being serious or not.
The mentioned cities and their residents would suffer becsuse they'd lose the autonomy to govern their cities to a larger government that they feel would give them less personalized, less efficient, and less responsive services.
If you still want to claim the moral high ground on the premise of helping someone, go with a sales tax redistribution scheme, but let's abandon this silly idea of merging for the sake of morality.
The mentioned cities and their residents would suffer becsuse they'd lose the autonomy to govern their cities to a larger government that they feel would give them less personalized, less efficient, and less responsive services.
If you still want to claim the moral high ground on the premise of helping someone, go with a sales tax redistribution scheme, but let's abandon this silly idea of merging for the sake of morality.
Here's the solution. Throw out the majority of people running the city and replace them with people running clayton, ladue, etc. I want people that actually have college degrees to be running a 1 million + city. I am TOTALLY in favor of a merger, as long as the school disctricts stay separate. If the county schools become a part of the city schools. I'd give the former county schools a shelf life of 20 years before they turn into what the city schools are now. A merger would be excellent for st louis though. No more being mentioned top 3 worst crime city EVERY year nationwide.
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Here's the solution. Throw out the majority of people running the city and replace them with people running clayton, ladue, etc.
That has to be one of dumbest things I have ever read on this forum. Really do you think rich republicans who live in gated communities will be able to deal with community issues in neighborhoods with high crime?
JCity wrote:Here's the solution. Throw out the majority of people running the city and replace them with people running clayton, ladue, etc. I want people that actually have college degrees to be running a 1 million + city.
I know of people from East St Louis who were accepted to Harvard.
Dems are better with dealing with social issues, I agree. But Republicans are business savvy. Is it any wonder the city has been run by democrats for the last 70 years and where has it gone businesswise? Obviously, I'm being a little extreme, but maybe a little balance would help. Businesses are flocking to St. Charles more than they are to St. Louis City. This is a joke and an embarrassment. All business, or at least any self-respecting business, should be located in the CBD. when did this get reversed?
St. Charles has a much better growth potential than St. Louis City. And this is coming from a pure-to-the-heart city advocate. St. Charles is still growing, in more ways than one. It's growing in population, in size, in homes...That's why businesses are flocking out there. It has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. Really, people put too much stock into political leadership. St. Louis City has a population of 350,000, which has gone up slightly in the last 5 years. St. Charles population increases that much every six months practically.
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Hey now, Trent, please don't point those horns at the Mayor of Affton! There IS such a thing.True, the office does not really exist, but I do attend the Affton meetings, and try to stay involved in both Affton and the St. Louis area as well. After all, it's where I live and the closest thing we've got to a mayor is Charlie Dooley.
While I think that your opinions are valid and love this poll, my spin is that you have got to fix schools before all else. Most of the points made here show that the educational districts are separate from governmental lines and that no merger will really help them.
Even if you make changes at the government level, once people have school-aged children, they will vote with their feet and move (if that's a financial option for them.) Now you can point to the fact that only about 35% of households have kids these days, but I argue that a true city community has to provide for children as well as adult needs. That means you have to offer lifecycle housing AND school systems.
Do I have the answer? No. But I'm willing to listen and I like a lot of what Creg Williams is doing in the City. My only suggestion if we merge is redrawing the school districts in pie-shaped parcels fanning outwardly from downtown. At least it would redistribute the wealth more evenly and it would create less administration of fewer districts.
As a resident of unincorporated St. Louis County though, I too have to say that I also have an incredibly responsive police, snow plow, street department, etc. as well. A great poll!
They just fired Creg Williams.
You, as a person, exist. Don't let anyone else tell you differently.
You, as a person, exist. Don't let anyone else tell you differently.
trent wrote:They just fired Creg Williams.
Any school superintendant who doesn't know how to spell his own name should be fired!
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With the kind of people running the city of St. Louis nowdays, like the people on the school board, and the Fire dept., I doubt that even Elbonia would want to merge with a bunch of wackos like that.
I really think they need some massive changes in the district, it's so ridiculous there that it doesn't matter who they hire as superintendent.
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The redistribution of wealth and resources is by definition Socialism. So, the city manager of Richmond Heights spending the tax payers money from Richmond Heights to improve the streets of Maplewood is Socialism.
In a test tube combining the government of several municipalities might yeild smaller government but not in the real world.
Take a look at the so called PARC department set up by several mid county muni's. It has employees and budget multiples of the individual muni's parks and recreation departments had before creating PARC
In a test tube combining the government of several municipalities might yeild smaller government but not in the real world.
Take a look at the so called PARC department set up by several mid county muni's. It has employees and budget multiples of the individual muni's parks and recreation departments had before creating PARC
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Stop posting this junk just to get a rise out of people. Our enitre government works on moving money from one person to the next. I guess we are socailst for excepting federal dollars for an extension of Metrolink via a North South line? I guess all those socialists in Boston illegially obtained that 15 billion in Fed funds for the Big Dig? Using the taxes of the region to help improve the region is not socialism.The Curmudgeon wrote:The redistribution of wealth and resources is by definition Socialism. So, the city manager of Richmond Heights spending the tax payers money from Richmond Heights to improve the streets of Maplewood is Socialism.
Somebody go tell all those socialists out in the suburbs to give back city dwellers the tax money they were re-distributed for all of those roads! I mean really, you sound like a lunitic.
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Although I agree with UE, Curmudgeon your terminology is rather extreme, I think Curmudgeon brings up a good pt: Voters in wealthy areas of the county will not approve something that will undoubtedly redistribute their tax dollars to pay for services in poorer parts of the city.
Regardless of the differences between democrats and republicans, I personally think a city council elected from across the current city and county could benefit from a 2 party system. For my thesis research I read, well to be fair "skimmed," a book about the history of politics in the city and I think the city's heavy lean toward the democratic party has been harmful over the past few decades. The same could be said about west county's preference of republicans as far as the distribution of tax dollars. I don't know if this is getting too political but who knows, maybe a more two party system resulting from this city/county merger could help bring more state tax dollars the whole region's way when either party is in charge at the state level.
Regardless of the differences between democrats and republicans, I personally think a city council elected from across the current city and county could benefit from a 2 party system. For my thesis research I read, well to be fair "skimmed," a book about the history of politics in the city and I think the city's heavy lean toward the democratic party has been harmful over the past few decades. The same could be said about west county's preference of republicans as far as the distribution of tax dollars. I don't know if this is getting too political but who knows, maybe a more two party system resulting from this city/county merger could help bring more state tax dollars the whole region's way when either party is in charge at the state level.
And even thought it may be displaced mistrust, but all the unrest in the city's schools is only seen as how the city can't manage the most basic of fundamental social institutions.
I know that SLPS are completely independent of the mayor etc (a lot of people don't know/care), but these very public disgraces by a school system that is seen by a lot of people in the county as a joke.... For the merger idea... as well as others - the cities problems can't make a full recovery until they get at least decent schools....
I know that SLPS are completely independent of the mayor etc (a lot of people don't know/care), but these very public disgraces by a school system that is seen by a lot of people in the county as a joke.... For the merger idea... as well as others - the cities problems can't make a full recovery until they get at least decent schools....
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I think that we should follow the model of NYC and Tokyo. NYC is split into 5 boroughs, and Tokyo is separated into 23 self-governing wards. I think that doing the same to St. Louis City and St. Louis County would be very good. The best thing about this is that all would combine to form the City of St. Louis, for a city population of 1.5 million. The central corridor out to Clayton/Richmond Heights would then become the Manhattan of St. Louis.
This would work, but this isn't 1898. When New Yorks 5 boroughs joined they took the name of manhattan, people in bronx, queens felt some resentment. The only way for your plan to work would be to create a similar but different name. e.g. have the big government - 1.5 million City County - be called something other than "the city of st. louis" or even just "st. louis", but then like NYC we create 5 - 9 new wards (similar in power to a municipality) that have NO lines (or very few) in common with current boundaries, but we draw the lines in a much more logical way.